Comments on: Seijigiri #12 - November 16, 2006: A special discussion on the Japan lobby http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/ Independent Podcasting from Tokyo. Featuring Seijigiri, a discussion of Japanese news and politics, as well as TPR News, our twice a week look at Japan's top stories. Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:21:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3 by: ken http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-3107 Sun, 10 Dec 2006 16:58:03 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-3107 Nipponia, Did you listen to the program? The reasons and rationale behind the lobby are well stated and even defended at times. If you actually have specific points to bring up, feel free to do so. Posting a couple of links doesn't constitute putting forth your own opinion. Nipponia, Did you listen to the program? The reasons and rationale behind the lobby are well stated and even defended at times.

If you actually have specific points to bring up, feel free to do so. Posting a couple of links doesn’t constitute putting forth your own opinion.

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-3106 Sun, 10 Dec 2006 16:56:20 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-3106 Nipponia, I just took a little look around your site and I'm not going to mark you as spam, but that's the best I can say. To claim your site represents the "Japanese view" is wholly and completely untrue. Your site represents the views of <em>uyoku</em> at best and is a compilation of articles that ignore all serious historical research and latch onto to unsourced, unverified, unsustainable arguments that mitigate Japanese responsibility for atrocities committed during WWII. On this site, I believe we have done a good job of fairly representing Japanese actions and motivation before and during the War, as well as after, but using militaristic wartime Japanese law to justify what was done during the war is corrupt reasoning and, if you sincerely sought a "cool, unbiased" view of what happened, you would know that. Furthermore, it irks me, to say the least, that you would imply that the abdication of responsibility was the view of the entire modern nation of Japan. This is quite simply not so. Japan was not evil, but the Imperial forces of Japan and the military governments of the 1930s and 1940s committed and condoned a number of heinous and inexcusable acts, both inside and outside of Japan. On top of your ill-informed, negligent articles on Nanjing, HR 759 and the comfort women issue, and other issues, you avoid the foul acts committed against the people of Japan at that time, thus perpetuating the myth that the people of Japan were in a unified mass behind the military governments. This is demonstrably untrue. I don't know what you hope to gain by your knee-jerk gainsaying and your rejection of Japanese guilt, but that kind of thinking is why Japan stil has rifts with all of its neighbors and why the Governmenthere has yet to do right by those it wronged. In the future, if you want to spread this garbage, at least be man enough to do it here. Don't spam us with comments on a program to which you apparently have not listened and don't link back to your vapid site. Nipponia, I just took a little look around your site and I’m not going to mark you as spam, but that’s the best I can say. To claim your site represents the “Japanese view” is wholly and completely untrue. Your site represents the views of uyoku at best and is a compilation of articles that ignore all serious historical research and latch onto to unsourced, unverified, unsustainable arguments that mitigate Japanese responsibility for atrocities committed during WWII. On this site, I believe we have done a good job of fairly representing Japanese actions and motivation before and during the War, as well as after, but using militaristic wartime Japanese law to justify what was done during the war is corrupt reasoning and, if you sincerely sought a “cool, unbiased” view of what happened, you would know that.
Furthermore, it irks me, to say the least, that you would imply that the abdication of responsibility was the view of the entire modern nation of Japan. This is quite simply not so.
Japan was not evil, but the Imperial forces of Japan and the military governments of the 1930s and 1940s committed and condoned a number of heinous and inexcusable acts, both inside and outside of Japan.

On top of your ill-informed, negligent articles on Nanjing, HR 759 and the comfort women issue, and other issues, you avoid the foul acts committed against the people of Japan at that time, thus perpetuating the myth that the people of Japan were in a unified mass behind the military governments. This is demonstrably untrue.

I don’t know what you hope to gain by your knee-jerk gainsaying and your rejection of Japanese guilt, but that kind of thinking is why Japan stil has rifts with all of its neighbors and why the Governmenthere has yet to do right by those it wronged.

In the future, if you want to spread this garbage, at least be man enough to do it here. Don’t spam us with comments on a program to which you apparently have not listened and don’t link back to your vapid site.

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-3103 Sun, 10 Dec 2006 16:34:31 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-3103 Nipponia, I understand self-promotion and all that, but, seriously, listen to the program first, then slyly accuse of being one-sided. Nipponia, I understand self-promotion and all that, but, seriously, listen to the program first, then slyly accuse of being one-sided.

]]> by: nipponia http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-3099 Sun, 10 Dec 2006 16:19:16 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-3099 if it’s of any interest to you, it maybe worth checking this site : http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/index.html and blog entry : http://blog.livedoor.jp/jiyuu_shikan/archives/50317494.html they include pretty much of the Japanese side of view. please consider both opinions from both sides. thanks in advance. if it’s of any interest to you, it maybe worth checking this site : http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/index.html and blog entry : http://blog.livedoor.jp/jiyuu_shikan/archives/50317494.html
they include pretty much of the Japanese side of view. please consider both opinions from both sides. thanks in advance.

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1914 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:18:18 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1914 Good point, Ken. Mr. Hobbs, look at it this way: People in every nation around the world have no problem with accepting a role in their nations' good deeds or accomplishments; it's usually done without thinking. Americans, the majority of whom were born during or after World War II, will talk about how "we" defeated Nazism, how "we" played a central role in the formation of the UN, or how "we" recovered from the Great Depression. How "we" transformed the world for the better through our economic progress. A majority of Americans are descended primarily from people who immigrated to the US in the closing years of the 19th century or later, but still talk about how "we" won our independence; about "our" Founding Fathers. It is a lot less common, exceedingly rare, in fact, to hear Americans talk about how "we" enslaved people or "we" massacred thousands in our colonization of the Philippines. Not even how "we" tortured people or forced prisoners in Abu Ghraib to pretend to blow each other. Likewise, people in Japan take the soft life of a solid economy, a high standard of living, not being in wars, and technological advancement as their birthright. Now, if we are entitled to the benefits of the positive actions of our forebears, are we not similarly entitled to a share of their guilt? Are there no lingering effects from Japan's actions during World War II? Not having renounced the positive, it is only fair for at least those in power today to accept responsibility for the negative. Waiting it out until actual hands that killed, raped, or robbed are attached to a corpse does not entitle an entire country to live in the stolen house an gain access to riches by standing on the bodies of their victims without remorse or recompense. Pride in the accomplishments of one's nation without shame for its atrocities is chauvinism and chauvinism should not be tolerated, much less espoused, by any responsible, thinking human being. Recognizing the bad along with the good and trying to make the wrong right is how we stop ourselves from repeating the mistakes of the past. Knowing that a war was bad is not enough - people have to make an effort to undo the bad done by the war and take action to avoid future wars. Ignoring the sins of the past is just as bad as ignoring them while they're going on. Good point, Ken. Mr. Hobbs, look at it this way: People in every nation around the world have no problem with accepting a role in their nations’ good deeds or accomplishments; it’s usually done without thinking.
Americans, the majority of whom were born during or after World War II, will talk about how “we” defeated Nazism, how “we” played a central role in the formation of the UN, or how “we” recovered from the Great Depression. How “we” transformed the world for the better through our economic progress. A majority of Americans are descended primarily from people who immigrated to the US in the closing years of the 19th century or later, but still talk about how “we” won our independence; about “our” Founding Fathers.
It is a lot less common, exceedingly rare, in fact, to hear Americans talk about how “we” enslaved people or “we” massacred thousands in our colonization of the Philippines. Not even how “we” tortured people or forced prisoners in Abu Ghraib to pretend to blow each other.

Likewise, people in Japan take the soft life of a solid economy, a high standard of living, not being in wars, and technological advancement as their birthright.
Now, if we are entitled to the benefits of the positive actions of our forebears, are we not similarly entitled to a share of their guilt? Are there no lingering effects from Japan’s actions during World War II? Not having renounced the positive, it is only fair for at least those in power today to accept responsibility for the negative. Waiting it out until actual hands that killed, raped, or robbed are attached to a corpse does not entitle an entire country to live in the stolen house an gain access to riches by standing on the bodies of their victims without remorse or recompense.

Pride in the accomplishments of one’s nation without shame for its atrocities is chauvinism and chauvinism should not be tolerated, much less espoused, by any responsible, thinking human being.

Recognizing the bad along with the good and trying to make the wrong right is how we stop ourselves from repeating the mistakes of the past. Knowing that a war was bad is not enough - people have to make an effort to undo the bad done by the war and take action to avoid future wars. Ignoring the sins of the past is just as bad as ignoring them while they’re going on.

]]> by: ken http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1888 Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:05:00 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1888 <em>...the people in power in Japan today reaped the benefits of wartime slave labor</em> You're not supposed to say that out loud. Cal: I think you're comment baiting, but ok... <em>I am sick of these belated ‘national apologies’ for atrocities and wrong-doings that happened decades ago.</em> You know what? I just have a really hard time feeling any sympathy for how sick you feel about hearing that nations should apologize for what they've done wrong. I feel sick about hearing about atrocities, human rights abuses, and the fact that it's still going on today - and I find that to be a better sickness to focus on eradicating rather than claiming to be sick of those who wish to hear at least a modicum of responsibility, recognition, or apology. A nation is a collective whole, and passes from generation to generation. Like it or not, we bear some guilt, collectively, as members of a nation. I used to find it expedient to say, "My family had not emigrated to America until the 20th century, and thus I'm excused from any past guilt." But the wrongs still leave consequences, ones that are all too real - and we all, each and every one of us, bears the burden of fixing them - which means carrying them forward to the future and attempting to ensure that they never happen again. The apology, sir, is not the issue - it's heartfelt human compassion. Recognition. Admission of wrongs. And most of all, quantifiable action in the direction of mending those wrongs. …the people in power in Japan today reaped the benefits of wartime slave labor

You’re not supposed to say that out loud.

Cal: I think you’re comment baiting, but ok…

I am sick of these belated ‘national apologies’ for atrocities and wrong-doings that happened decades ago.

You know what? I just have a really hard time feeling any sympathy for how sick you feel about hearing that nations should apologize for what they’ve done wrong. I feel sick about hearing about atrocities, human rights abuses, and the fact that it’s still going on today - and I find that to be a better sickness to focus on eradicating rather than claiming to be sick of those who wish to hear at least a modicum of responsibility, recognition, or apology.

A nation is a collective whole, and passes from generation to generation. Like it or not, we bear some guilt, collectively, as members of a nation. I used to find it expedient to say, “My family had not emigrated to America until the 20th century, and thus I’m excused from any past guilt.” But the wrongs still leave consequences, ones that are all too real - and we all, each and every one of us, bears the burden of fixing them - which means carrying them forward to the future and attempting to ensure that they never happen again.

The apology, sir, is not the issue - it’s heartfelt human compassion. Recognition. Admission of wrongs. And most of all, quantifiable action in the direction of mending those wrongs.

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1882 Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:29:48 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1882 I agree to a point, Mr. Hobbs. In the case of official actions in a declared war, though, precedent puts the burden on the government of the nation in question as responsibility is hard to pin down. If a Japanese soldier raped a kidnapped Korean woman, but it was common practice because officialdom condoned and even promoted such actions, who's to blame? Does the victim have no recourse? That, to me, seems unjust and absurd. If you were talking about US slavery or British actions in 19th century India, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but the people in power in Japan today reaped the benefits of wartime slave labor and have, in some cases, blocked or stymied efforts at reconciliation. The government of Japan has been able to stall and avoid responsibility for what happened - they shouldn't be rewarded with clemency for having been able to get away with it, especially not when they could have set things right, or at least taken productive steps, decades ago. I agree to a point, Mr. Hobbs. In the case of official actions in a declared war, though, precedent puts the burden on the government of the nation in question as responsibility is hard to pin down. If a Japanese soldier raped a kidnapped Korean woman, but it was common practice because officialdom condoned and even promoted such actions, who’s to blame? Does the victim have no recourse? That, to me, seems unjust and absurd.

If you were talking about US slavery or British actions in 19th century India, I’d be inclined to agree with you, but the people in power in Japan today reaped the benefits of wartime slave labor and have, in some cases, blocked or stymied efforts at reconciliation. The government of Japan has been able to stall and avoid responsibility for what happened - they shouldn’t be rewarded with clemency for having been able to get away with it, especially not when they could have set things right, or at least taken productive steps, decades ago.

]]> by: Cal Hobbs http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1881 Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:21:38 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1881 I am sick of these belated 'national apologies' for atrocities and wrong-doings that happened decades ago. I don't think you can apologize for anyone else. If you didn't do it, your apology is meaningless, at best. Every nation can look back at its history and find policies and actions that were unjustified and, by today's standards, inexplicable and wrong. But only the people who enacted those policies or committed the acts can apologize. I am sick of these belated ‘national apologies’ for atrocities and wrong-doings that happened decades ago.

I don’t think you can apologize for anyone else. If you didn’t do it, your apology is meaningless, at best.

Every nation can look back at its history and find policies and actions that were unjustified and, by today’s standards, inexplicable and wrong. But only the people who enacted those policies or committed the acts can apologize.

]]> by: Garrett http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1106 Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:33:48 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-1106 Sorry, James, I just noticed that I wrote "Japanese criticism of Japan" in comment 886. That should have been "Japanese criticism of North Korea," of course. Sorry for the mistake. Sorry, James, I just noticed that I wrote “Japanese criticism of Japan” in comment 886. That should have been “Japanese criticism of North Korea,” of course.

Sorry for the mistake.

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-892 Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:17:45 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/16/seijigiri-12/#comment-892 A very good point, Andy. It's true that the most controversial whitewashing textbooks were used in a tiny percentage of schools. There are levels, though. The worst examples of right-wing slant in textbooks are rare, but it's not as if the rest of the textbooks are great attempts at objectivity. A very good point, Andy. It’s true that the most controversial whitewashing textbooks were used in a tiny percentage of schools. There are levels, though. The worst examples of right-wing slant in textbooks are rare, but it’s not as if the rest of the textbooks are great attempts at objectivity.

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