Comment by 1ku2

November 28, 2006 @ 11:19 am

This is why the foreigner Asashoryu is not a true champion. Akebono the foreigner made shame in K1. Konishiki failed to make restaurant in Tokyo with his stupid music, it is not dignity. Kokkai has too hairy. Kotooshu is like should be basket player.

Wakanohana has success restaurant. Takanohana has great success, not making shame K1.
Only Japanese can be be true sumo, Asashoryu is fake.

Comment by DeOrio

November 28, 2006 @ 11:29 am

Yeah, you’re right, 1ku2. Sumo was much better for those past few decades when there were only a tiny handful of moves and the outcome of a match could be determined by size alone. Great Japanese champs of yore, like Terao, were dirty.
Asashoryu has been in trouble for using agility before and might be again in the future. Don’t you hate it when athleticism and quick-thinking get into sports and make them all interesting and unpredictable? Damned foreigners.

Comment by John

November 28, 2006 @ 11:45 am

Nothing surprises me with Asashoryu. He has no class and is arrogant.I am surprised the NSK have not gripped him before this.He is only winning basho because many of the others are banged up. Kaio would be more than a match but has a bad back,Tochiazuma has banged up knees and Chiyotakai has only one arm!! Hopefully the young sumotori coming up will take Asashoryu down off the throne he has put himself on. He could not hold a candle to the yokozuna of old, Taiho, Kitanoumi, Kitanofuji, Chiyonofuji, Takanohana, Musashimaru but sadly he will beat records because he has limited competition.

Comment by Xylo

November 28, 2006 @ 12:37 pm

Nothing that the foreign rikishi have done since retirement is as digraceful as the public squabble between Takanohana and Wakanohana after their father’s death. Takanohana appeared on tv for weeks trashing his brother in an attempt to win the media over to his side of the petty family feud, losing a lot of respect in the process.

Comment by GaiJim

November 28, 2006 @ 1:16 pm

Xylo, I agree.
John, if other wrestlers are banged up, doesn’t that show that Asashoryu is made of tougher stuff? Being able to stay in relatively good shape and win bouts without the pyrrhic victories gained by, say blowing out a knee, surely says something about his being a smarter breed of wrestler. Comparisons to different eras are irrelevant. Asashoryu is clearly the best man now.

Comment by ken

November 28, 2006 @ 1:24 pm

1ku2 or whatever, seriously this isn’t a place where your stupid comments are welcome. feel free to post here, but one more like that and you’re listed as spam.

Comment by ken

November 28, 2006 @ 4:30 pm

Gaijim, I disagree. Part of sport is the collective memory and how we compare today’s greats to those of the past. I think Asa has had the benefit of a somewhat weaker field than, say, five or ten years ago. I’d love to see him against Takanohana in his prime.

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November 28, 2006 @ 6:14 pm

[…] -Ohhhh snap! Asashoryu pulled out the Ketaguri (蹴手繰り), how dishonorable! See the video here! […]

Comment by DeOrio

November 28, 2006 @ 6:22 pm

So would I, Ken, but I don’t think Takanohana’s victory would be the foregone conclusion many people seem to think it would be.
The allure to sports in general and sumo in particular is clearly linked the traditions they have, but I don’t see why those traditions should occlude th paths to innovation. Ketaguri may be frowned upon, but this is reactionary. What’s wrong with something that shows quick judgement, agility, and the use of surprise? These are the things so prized in most other sports. Is sumo to be hidebound by its traditions or use that foundation to grow.
On one hand, I can see why some in the sumo world would not want to see widespread use of ketaguri - it ends bouts quickly, even by sumo standards and smacks of trickery. If rikishi are wary of the technique, they may become more timid in their starts and the sport would thereby lose some of its excitement.
However, I think the possible benefits of accepting the use of a legal and well-known technique by even a yokozuna outweigh the demerits. Rikishi have been on a trend of getting bigger and bigger and a number of techniques are getting rarer and rarer (granted, ketaguri has a taboo clinging to it), but this is not a positive trend. Just as rikishi have had to adapt to changes in size, they’ll be able to adapt to the use of a technique that they know, but just aren’t used to seeing top-ranked wrestlers use. It’ll make the sport more exciting.

Asashoryu is neither classless nor arrogant. He is in the tradition of Terao and, even further back guys like Narutoumi (maybe my size and I’m not a big guy), who had to use agility, quick-thinking, and surprise to win. Asashoryu himself complained of being banged up and took an opportunity, within the rules, when he saw it. Balance is integral to the sport, if Kisenosato didn’t think of the possibility of Asashoryu’s not taking his charge directly, he should have. He was outwitted. That’s why Asashoryu is yokozuna and Kisenosato is komusubi.

Comment by John

November 29, 2006 @ 6:03 pm

I can see some of the points made by 1ku2 and DEORIO but to compare Asashoryu to Terao and Mainoumi is unfair. I stick by my previous comment about class and arrogance. One never saw either Terao or Mainuomi glareing at opponents, small men, big hearts, great skill. I would also bet that none of the Yokozuna mentioned in my previous comment used ketaguri. Taiho was not a big man and nor was Chiyonafuji when compared to some of his opponents. The use of ketaguri shows Asashoryu’s lack of class and the lack of awareness of what it means to be yokozuna which indicates a certain amount of arrogance.

Comment by DeOrio

November 29, 2006 @ 7:32 pm

I didn’t compare anyone to Mainoumi, John. I brought up the small, even way back in the day, Narutoumi. I don’t know what match you saw, but Asashoryu didn’t seem to be glaring any more than anyone else or any more than usual - he’s distinctly business-like about his bouts, but he helped Kisenosato up, patted him on the back, and left it at that. Asashoryu engages in no kind of showboating. What makes him arrogant?

It’s a big claim to imply that no other top-level rikishi has used ketaguri in competition. Even if they haven’t, though, my point stands - there’s no strong reason to look down on the technique. Is it cheating? No? Is it unnecessarily dangerous? No? Let it be.

It may be true that the yokozuna of old would have their way with Asashoryu, but that’s very hard to substantiate and I don’t think it makes Asa arrogant or classless.

Comment by Ken

November 30, 2006 @ 1:00 am

Oh, come on. Asa has been known to showboat a bit - in a fun way, I think.

Anyway, I certainly didn’t mean that I think Takanohana would wipe the floor with Asa, but I’d like to see it. I think you have a point, watching Akebono and Musashimaru got a tad boring since they just seemed to rely on their massive bulk. I do like the agility that Asa brings to the sport. Hakuho as well. I think Kotooshu brings a new breed of athleticism, but he just may be too damn tall for his own good.

Comment by garsevan

January 4, 2007 @ 10:37 pm

Im sumo fan from Georgia, it is a small country in europe from which Kokkai is. I understand why non-japanese sekitoris and especially Asashoryu are not popular in Japan. It is simple xenophobia, which is caused by their excellent results. Let me ask you, what is more dishonorable: Asashoryu using Ketaguri and winning Yusho with 15-0 result, or Takamisakari behaving
like a clown with a result for example 8-7?

Comment by ken

January 5, 2007 @ 2:10 am

Kokkai is a great fighter. I think one thing you need to understand is that Asashoryu is very, very popular in Japan. He has made the sport exciting again for thousands of fans.

Personally, I (who posted this piece) never claimed that using the Ketaguri was dishonorable; in fact, what I think is dishonorable is losing to such a move, since every top level wrestler should be ready for any and all moves.

Comment by DeOrio

January 5, 2007 @ 3:24 am

Yes! That’s the point I was trying to make when this post was first up.

Garsevan, I’m going to second Ken here and say that while there is certainly some xenophobia in Japan, it doesn’t seem to be a big factor in sumo. Asashoryu is popular even among afficionados, as are Kotooshu, Balto, and Kokkai. I’d even go so far as to say that Asashoryu and Kotooshu are two of the most popular wrestlers around today. Were xenophobia a strong factor, Kokkai and the other foreigners never would have made it through the tradition-bound world of the stables.

The one thing that strikes me as odd is the names of Western wrestlers. They’re all geographical. Balto? Kokkai (Black Sea)? Kotooshu? Can’t they be allowed names that aren’t uncreative hints as to whence they came?

Comment by garsevan

January 5, 2007 @ 7:09 pm

Dear Ken and Deorio
Thanks for your urgent and wise comments. I think you cant disagree with me, if I say that in recent ten years sumo step by step was transformed from a pure sport to a big and profitable business, which Mr.Kitanoumi and others involved in it try to sell abroad as profitably as possible. Of course they need non-japanese wrestlers for its promotion. Let me ask, if there is no xenophobia in sumo, why according the rules there can be only one foreigner in every stable? I remember the time when there was no limit.
And Mr.1KU2 when you are speaking about Akebonos failure in K1 or Konishikis in business, try to compare them with japanese-origin Yusho-less Yokozuna Futahaguro, and ask yourself if it is possible to foreigner achive Yokozuna title without winning even single tournament. And also think about Futahaguros career ending and post sumo life. He is great example of hinkaku, yeah?

Comment by DeOrio

January 5, 2007 @ 10:28 pm

Garsevan, I think you’re absolutely right. I think every Japanese sport has some xenophobic rules in place limiting the number of foreigners who can participate. I think the xenophobia in sumo affects those who want to get in, but aren’t yet in, rather than those who are already in. In other words, I don’t think Kokkai or Kotooshu has to worry about much.

I agree strongly with you that sumo is just big business now. I don’t know if you’ve read Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner’s Freakonomics, but you ought to. There’s a great analysis demonstrating the widespread fixing of last day matches in sumo, which is astounding.

Comment by john

February 2, 2007 @ 2:24 pm

Wrestling is the same thing as the battle in the war.
Two opponents two enemy sides. You have to have technique in wrestling and the tactic in the war!
You know what happens if you engage in war without a tactic even with superior number of troops etc..You lose!
Mongols traditionally good fighters on both fields, and that’s exactly what happens when a technically good wrestler fights
in a “PUSHING CONTEST” called sumo.
Don’t blame the current japanese sumo wrestlers they are just about the same as the ones that were a decade ago or so.
Let’s say it was a battle, who’d be the loser? Kisenosato would wouldn’t he? And he’d be dead on the field.
And no matter how heroic he was he’d be long forgotten just because he is a loser