Comments on: Yokozuna Asashoryu uses the Ketaguri - 朝青龍のけたぐり http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/ Independent Podcasting from Tokyo. Featuring Seijigiri, a discussion of Japanese news and politics, as well as TPR News, our twice a week look at Japan's top stories. Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:26:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3 by: john http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-11718 Fri, 02 Feb 2007 05:24:04 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-11718 Wrestling is the same thing as the battle in the war. Two opponents two enemy sides. You have to have technique in wrestling and the tactic in the war! You know what happens if you engage in war without a tactic even with superior number of troops etc..You lose! Mongols traditionally good fighters on both fields, and that's exactly what happens when a technically good wrestler fights in a "PUSHING CONTEST" called sumo. Don't blame the current japanese sumo wrestlers they are just about the same as the ones that were a decade ago or so. Let's say it was a battle, who'd be the loser? Kisenosato would wouldn't he? And he'd be dead on the field. And no matter how heroic he was he'd be long forgotten just because he is a loser Wrestling is the same thing as the battle in the war.
Two opponents two enemy sides. You have to have technique in wrestling and the tactic in the war!
You know what happens if you engage in war without a tactic even with superior number of troops etc..You lose!
Mongols traditionally good fighters on both fields, and that’s exactly what happens when a technically good wrestler fights
in a “PUSHING CONTEST” called sumo.
Don’t blame the current japanese sumo wrestlers they are just about the same as the ones that were a decade ago or so.
Let’s say it was a battle, who’d be the loser? Kisenosato would wouldn’t he? And he’d be dead on the field.
And no matter how heroic he was he’d be long forgotten just because he is a loser

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6449 Fri, 05 Jan 2007 13:28:16 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6449 Garsevan, I think you're absolutely right. I think every Japanese sport has some xenophobic rules in place limiting the number of foreigners who can participate. I think the xenophobia in sumo affects those who want to get in, but aren't yet in, rather than those who are already in. In other words, I don't think Kokkai or Kotooshu has to worry about much. I agree strongly with you that sumo is just big business now. I don't know if you've read Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner's <em>Freakonomics</em>, but you ought to. There's a great analysis demonstrating the widespread fixing of last day matches in sumo, which is astounding. Garsevan, I think you’re absolutely right. I think every Japanese sport has some xenophobic rules in place limiting the number of foreigners who can participate. I think the xenophobia in sumo affects those who want to get in, but aren’t yet in, rather than those who are already in. In other words, I don’t think Kokkai or Kotooshu has to worry about much.

I agree strongly with you that sumo is just big business now. I don’t know if you’ve read Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner’s Freakonomics, but you ought to. There’s a great analysis demonstrating the widespread fixing of last day matches in sumo, which is astounding.

]]> by: garsevan http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6443 Fri, 05 Jan 2007 10:09:02 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6443 Dear Ken and Deorio Thanks for your urgent and wise comments. I think you cant disagree with me, if I say that in recent ten years sumo step by step was transformed from a pure sport to a big and profitable business, which Mr.Kitanoumi and others involved in it try to sell abroad as profitably as possible. Of course they need non-japanese wrestlers for its promotion. Let me ask, if there is no xenophobia in sumo, why according the rules there can be only one foreigner in every stable? I remember the time when there was no limit. And Mr.1KU2 when you are speaking about Akebonos failure in K1 or Konishikis in business, try to compare them with japanese-origin Yusho-less Yokozuna Futahaguro, and ask yourself if it is possible to foreigner achive Yokozuna title without winning even single tournament. And also think about Futahaguros career ending and post sumo life. He is great example of hinkaku, yeah? Dear Ken and Deorio
Thanks for your urgent and wise comments. I think you cant disagree with me, if I say that in recent ten years sumo step by step was transformed from a pure sport to a big and profitable business, which Mr.Kitanoumi and others involved in it try to sell abroad as profitably as possible. Of course they need non-japanese wrestlers for its promotion. Let me ask, if there is no xenophobia in sumo, why according the rules there can be only one foreigner in every stable? I remember the time when there was no limit.
And Mr.1KU2 when you are speaking about Akebonos failure in K1 or Konishikis in business, try to compare them with japanese-origin Yusho-less Yokozuna Futahaguro, and ask yourself if it is possible to foreigner achive Yokozuna title without winning even single tournament. And also think about Futahaguros career ending and post sumo life. He is great example of hinkaku, yeah?

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6411 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 18:24:41 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6411 Yes! That's the point I was trying to make when this post was first up. Garsevan, I'm going to second Ken here and say that while there is certainly some xenophobia in Japan, it doesn't seem to be a big factor in sumo. Asashoryu is popular even among afficionados, as are Kotooshu, Balto, and Kokkai. I'd even go so far as to say that Asashoryu and Kotooshu are two of the most popular wrestlers around today. Were xenophobia a strong factor, Kokkai and the other foreigners never would have made it through the tradition-bound world of the stables. The one thing that strikes me as odd is the names of Western wrestlers. They're all geographical. Balto? Kokkai (Black Sea)? Kotooshu? Can't they be allowed names that aren't uncreative hints as to whence they came? Yes! That’s the point I was trying to make when this post was first up.

Garsevan, I’m going to second Ken here and say that while there is certainly some xenophobia in Japan, it doesn’t seem to be a big factor in sumo. Asashoryu is popular even among afficionados, as are Kotooshu, Balto, and Kokkai. I’d even go so far as to say that Asashoryu and Kotooshu are two of the most popular wrestlers around today. Were xenophobia a strong factor, Kokkai and the other foreigners never would have made it through the tradition-bound world of the stables.

The one thing that strikes me as odd is the names of Western wrestlers. They’re all geographical. Balto? Kokkai (Black Sea)? Kotooshu? Can’t they be allowed names that aren’t uncreative hints as to whence they came?

]]> by: ken http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6408 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 17:10:04 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6408 Kokkai is a great fighter. I think one thing you need to understand is that Asashoryu is very, very popular in Japan. He has made the sport exciting again for thousands of fans. Personally, I (who posted this piece) never claimed that using the Ketaguri was dishonorable; in fact, what I think is dishonorable is losing to such a move, since every top level wrestler should be ready for any and all moves. Kokkai is a great fighter. I think one thing you need to understand is that Asashoryu is very, very popular in Japan. He has made the sport exciting again for thousands of fans.

Personally, I (who posted this piece) never claimed that using the Ketaguri was dishonorable; in fact, what I think is dishonorable is losing to such a move, since every top level wrestler should be ready for any and all moves.

]]> by: garsevan http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6398 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 13:37:48 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-6398 Im sumo fan from Georgia, it is a small country in europe from which Kokkai is. I understand why non-japanese sekitoris and especially Asashoryu are not popular in Japan. It is simple xenophobia, which is caused by their excellent results. Let me ask you, what is more dishonorable: Asashoryu using Ketaguri and winning Yusho with 15-0 result, or Takamisakari behaving like a clown with a result for example 8-7? Im sumo fan from Georgia, it is a small country in europe from which Kokkai is. I understand why non-japanese sekitoris and especially Asashoryu are not popular in Japan. It is simple xenophobia, which is caused by their excellent results. Let me ask you, what is more dishonorable: Asashoryu using Ketaguri and winning Yusho with 15-0 result, or Takamisakari behaving
like a clown with a result for example 8-7?

]]> by: Ken http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-1953 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:00:18 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-1953 Oh, come on. Asa has been known to showboat a bit - in a fun way, I think. Anyway, I certainly didn't mean that I think Takanohana would wipe the floor with Asa, but I'd like to see it. I think you have a point, watching Akebono and Musashimaru got a tad boring since they just seemed to rely on their massive bulk. I do like the agility that Asa brings to the sport. Hakuho as well. I think Kotooshu brings a new breed of athleticism, but he just may be too damn tall for his own good. Oh, come on. Asa has been known to showboat a bit - in a fun way, I think.

Anyway, I certainly didn’t mean that I think Takanohana would wipe the floor with Asa, but I’d like to see it. I think you have a point, watching Akebono and Musashimaru got a tad boring since they just seemed to rely on their massive bulk. I do like the agility that Asa brings to the sport. Hakuho as well. I think Kotooshu brings a new breed of athleticism, but he just may be too damn tall for his own good.

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-1938 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:32:03 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-1938 I didn't compare anyone to Mainoumi, John. I brought up the small, even way back in the day, Narutoumi. I don't know what match you saw, but Asashoryu didn't seem to be glaring any more than anyone else or any more than usual - he's distinctly business-like about his bouts, but he helped Kisenosato up, patted him on the back, and left it at that. Asashoryu engages in no kind of showboating. What makes him arrogant? It's a big claim to imply that no other top-level <em>rikishi</em> has used <em>ketaguri</em> in competition. Even if they haven't, though, my point stands - there's no strong reason to look down on the technique. Is it cheating? No? Is it unnecessarily dangerous? No? Let it be. It may be true that the <em>yokozuna</em> of old would have their way with Asashoryu, but that's very hard to substantiate and I don't think it makes Asa arrogant or classless. I didn’t compare anyone to Mainoumi, John. I brought up the small, even way back in the day, Narutoumi. I don’t know what match you saw, but Asashoryu didn’t seem to be glaring any more than anyone else or any more than usual - he’s distinctly business-like about his bouts, but he helped Kisenosato up, patted him on the back, and left it at that. Asashoryu engages in no kind of showboating. What makes him arrogant?

It’s a big claim to imply that no other top-level rikishi has used ketaguri in competition. Even if they haven’t, though, my point stands - there’s no strong reason to look down on the technique. Is it cheating? No? Is it unnecessarily dangerous? No? Let it be.

It may be true that the yokozuna of old would have their way with Asashoryu, but that’s very hard to substantiate and I don’t think it makes Asa arrogant or classless.

]]> by: John http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-1930 Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:03:12 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-1930 I can see some of the points made by 1ku2 and DEORIO but to compare Asashoryu to Terao and Mainoumi is unfair. I stick by my previous comment about class and arrogance. One never saw either Terao or Mainuomi glareing at opponents, small men, big hearts, great skill. I would also bet that none of the Yokozuna mentioned in my previous comment used ketaguri. Taiho was not a big man and nor was Chiyonafuji when compared to some of his opponents. The use of ketaguri shows Asashoryu's lack of class and the lack of awareness of what it means to be yokozuna which indicates a certain amount of arrogance. I can see some of the points made by 1ku2 and DEORIO but to compare Asashoryu to Terao and Mainoumi is unfair. I stick by my previous comment about class and arrogance. One never saw either Terao or Mainuomi glareing at opponents, small men, big hearts, great skill. I would also bet that none of the Yokozuna mentioned in my previous comment used ketaguri. Taiho was not a big man and nor was Chiyonafuji when compared to some of his opponents. The use of ketaguri shows Asashoryu’s lack of class and the lack of awareness of what it means to be yokozuna which indicates a certain amount of arrogance.

]]> by: DeOrio http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-1838 Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:22:19 +0000 http://www.transpacificradio.com/2006/11/28/yokozuna-asashoryu-uses-the-ketaguri/#comment-1838 So would I, Ken, but I don't think Takanohana's victory would be the foregone conclusion many people seem to think it would be. The allure to sports in general and sumo in particular is clearly linked the traditions they have, but I don't see why those traditions should occlude th paths to innovation. <em>Ketaguri</em> may be frowned upon, but this is reactionary. What's wrong with something that shows quick judgement, agility, and the use of surprise? These are the things so prized in most other sports. Is sumo to be hidebound by its traditions or use that foundation to grow. On one hand, I can see why some in the sumo world would not want to see widespread use of <em>ketaguri</em> - it ends bouts quickly, even by sumo standards and smacks of trickery. If <em>rikishi</em> are wary of the technique, they may become more timid in their starts and the sport would thereby lose some of its excitement. However, I think the possible benefits of accepting the use of a legal and well-known technique by even a <em>yokozuna</em> outweigh the demerits. <em>Rikishi</em> have been on a trend of getting bigger and bigger and a number of techniques are getting rarer and rarer (granted, <em>ketaguri</em> has a taboo clinging to it), but this is not a positive trend. Just as <em>rikishi</em> have had to adapt to changes in size, they'll be able to adapt to the use of a technique that they know, but just aren't used to seeing top-ranked wrestlers use. It'll make the sport more exciting. Asashoryu is neither classless nor arrogant. He is in the tradition of Terao and, even further back guys like Narutoumi (maybe my size and I'm not a big guy), who had to use agility, quick-thinking, and surprise to win. Asashoryu himself complained of being banged up and took an opportunity, within the rules, when he saw it. Balance is integral to the sport, if Kisenosato didn't think of the possibility of Asashoryu's not taking his charge directly, he should have. He was outwitted. That's why Asashoryu is <em>yokozuna</em> and Kisenosato is <em>komusubi</em>. So would I, Ken, but I don’t think Takanohana’s victory would be the foregone conclusion many people seem to think it would be.
The allure to sports in general and sumo in particular is clearly linked the traditions they have, but I don’t see why those traditions should occlude th paths to innovation. Ketaguri may be frowned upon, but this is reactionary. What’s wrong with something that shows quick judgement, agility, and the use of surprise? These are the things so prized in most other sports. Is sumo to be hidebound by its traditions or use that foundation to grow.
On one hand, I can see why some in the sumo world would not want to see widespread use of ketaguri - it ends bouts quickly, even by sumo standards and smacks of trickery. If rikishi are wary of the technique, they may become more timid in their starts and the sport would thereby lose some of its excitement.
However, I think the possible benefits of accepting the use of a legal and well-known technique by even a yokozuna outweigh the demerits. Rikishi have been on a trend of getting bigger and bigger and a number of techniques are getting rarer and rarer (granted, ketaguri has a taboo clinging to it), but this is not a positive trend. Just as rikishi have had to adapt to changes in size, they’ll be able to adapt to the use of a technique that they know, but just aren’t used to seeing top-ranked wrestlers use. It’ll make the sport more exciting.

Asashoryu is neither classless nor arrogant. He is in the tradition of Terao and, even further back guys like Narutoumi (maybe my size and I’m not a big guy), who had to use agility, quick-thinking, and surprise to win. Asashoryu himself complained of being banged up and took an opportunity, within the rules, when he saw it. Balance is integral to the sport, if Kisenosato didn’t think of the possibility of Asashoryu’s not taking his charge directly, he should have. He was outwitted. That’s why Asashoryu is yokozuna and Kisenosato is komusubi.

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