Nanjing, Comfort Women, North Korea, and More: Japan’s Taste for Red Herring

Filed under: Trans-Pacific Radio, Shasetsu - Op/Ed
Posted by Garrett DeOrio at 12:22 pm on Thursday, May 3, 2007

Japan does pretty well for itself. It’s a wealthy, prosperous nation only a generation or two out of a devastating war and military dictatorship. It rose from being an isolated backwater to the lofty status of being an empire that could contend with the old Empires of Europe in a mere generation or two before the War. Japan’s great success came from a mixture of being willing to borrow and build upon foreign ideas and doing what worked - putting the practical ahead of ideological.

Japan is not in bad shape today by any means. It is not, however, on the rise anymore. Its future is not as bright as it once was. Some of this is due, of course, to there being not many places to go from the top. Some of it, though, is due to baffling decisions, a refusal to address the actual issues facing the country, and the entrenched power behind it all.

It seems that when most people outside of Japan, certainly outside of East Asia, think of Japan, they think of World War II. Manga and anime may be crowding the bedrooms of wannabe otaku throughout the Western World, Japanese cars and electronics may be so dominant that it’s hard to conceive of modern life without the produce of corporate Japan, businessmen may worry about the direction and state of that corporate Japan, but Japan is, as much as anything else, one of the bad guys from World War II.

For the most part, this is sad. The overwhelming majority of Japanese people today are no more responsible for what Japan did during the War than the average American alive today is. On the other hand, wartime issues in Japan can be maddening for those who like the country and want to see it do well across the board. This is because the default setting of a number of people in power in Japan seems to be to do just what bad guy Japan would have done: lie, mislead, deny - anything to defend the myth of infallibility that many people like to entertain about their own lands.

There is a great marlin circling Japan promising sustenance and wealth for the people. The fight will be long and hard, possibly dangerous, but the reward of catching that fish will be great. The other option is to cast around for junk fish that may or may not even be in the water. To go after the red herring. You can’t eat it, it doesn’t help you, and only morons will buy it, but that hasn’t diminished the ranks of Japan’s red herring fishing club.

Back in December, I published a brief history of the Nanjing massacre and, at the end, criticized China for playing into Japan’s hands by making the number of people killed the be-all and end-all of the issue. I criticized Japan for not only getting off topic by squabbling over the number, but by refusing to address the number honestly - tossing out random low numbers, for example.

“Japanese troops occupying Nanjing killed as many as 300,000.”

“No! 26,000!”

Just think about the thinking behind that. The defense is so desperate, the crime so atrocious, that apparently having slaughtered 26,000 people becomes bearable.
Even worse are the logical acrobatics we see in dealing with Nanjing. The publicity given last year to a book questioning the validity of the infamous photos of the massacre is a prime chunk of red herring. The argument essentially goes like this: some of the infamous Nanjing massacre photos were published in Japan before the fall of Nanjing, therefore they can’t be photos of the massacre.

Fair enough.

Other photos were cropped to focus on a child, leaving an adult out of the photo. Some show Chinese women smiling as they’re supposedly being dragged off into slavery. There are photos of Japanese soldiers giving things to Chinese people that weren’t publicized. Therefore, all Chinese are liars and the massacre never happened.

I’m not exaggerating. That was the argument put forth and, if the first section of this editorial gets attention, you’ll see the argument again.

What makes this frustrating is that the photo argument is all but irrelevant. It is not, as Nanjing massacre deniers would have you believe, a case of claims vs. evidence. It is not a criminal trial in which we have to assume that nothing happened until we see concrete evidence of a crime and concrete evidence linking that crime to a perpetrator. We have the miasma of history and enough incontrovertible evidence that something did happen that it is now incumbent upon us to sort it out.

It’s not worth talking to deniers, though, because deniers seem to believe that if any Chinese woman smiled at any time, she couldn’t have been in a bad situation. If any photo is fake, anyone who claims to have seen bad deeds done unrelated to that photo is lying. If the Chinese Government has developed a reputation for lying long after the massacre, and the victims of the massacre were Chinese, nothing happened because one Chinese group’s dishonesty makes all Chinese liars.

The argument put forth by deniers is the same kind of red herring thrown up in rape trials: the victim is not a saint, not being a saint, we should assume she’s a whore, being a whore, she couldn’t have been raped. Case closed.

You tell me the difference.

The Nanjing massacre is not the only wartime issue to get the red herring treatment, though. Recently, comfort women have been all the rage. This one can be even more frustrating than the Nanjing issue because we have just as many red herring, but not even a sincere attempt to introduce evidence; just character assassination and desperate attempts to change the subject.

In a recent interview with Fareed Zakaria, Sankei Shimbun Editor Yoshihisa Komori, when asked why Prime Minister Abe would claim women had not been forced into prostitution or sexually enslaved, immediately begins splitting hairs. He argues, centrally, that the military itself never directly coerced women. He admits that the military may have contracted brokers, admits that the conditions under which the women lived (I would add: at least partially as a result of how they and their families were treated by Japanese occupation forces) may well have led to there being no choice but prostitution, but frames the argument as one over the extent of the military’s involvement, which is important, but not the central issue.

On April 27th, the Japan Times published an AP article explaining that coercion had been used in Allied brothels of the Occupation into 1946. This may be true, but it hardly changes anything. In fact, the allegations, quite possibly true, serve as further evidence of misdeeds on the part of Japan’s government.

First, the very articles that mention coercion in brothels set up for American troops include two salient points: that the brothels were set up by the Japanese government, and that the coercion in question was women enslaved for sexual purposes by Japan were then turned around and sold to the Occupation forces.

Recent articles about US participation in prostitution haven’t shed a lot of new light on the subject, but have garnered quite a bit of attention in the press and in the blogosphere. The tack of a number of commentaries seems to be that the Americans had sex slaves, just like Japan. Many commentaries go on to suggest that this means either that the US House should not adopt a resolution condemning Japan’s wartime activities or that what Japan did was really not extraordinarily bad.

This is the quintessential red herring. It diverts attention from the topic at hand by pointing to flaws in others, which may be flaws, but have no effect on the original topic. It then conflates or equates disparate elements.

The “America did it, too” argument is contemptible for two reasons. First, America didn’t do it, too. The allegation is really that the Japanese government essentially did it twice - enslaving women for their own troops, then enslaving women for the occupying troops to head off a wave of rape and violence that no evidence suggests would have actually occurred. Second, even if the American Forces had been outright, violent, serial rapists to a man, it changes absolutely nothing about the sexual enslavement practiced by either the Japanese Imperial Army or its contractors.

Repeating the assertion that there is no evidence to back up the claims of former sex slaves is even more abhorrent. First, most sex slaves claim to have been, well, sexually enslaved. There’s no reason a teenaged girl being abducted or coerced into often unpaid prostitution, or sexual slavery, being used by scores of men, who often beat or otherwise mistreated her, went hungry, and was living through the biggest war in the history of the world should be expected to remember for whom her original abductor worked.

Despite Japanese military documents that appear to describe exactly the sort of coercion being denied by Mr. Komori and others, despite the statements of former soldiers, and despite officials as high up as former Prime Minister Nakasone having said they themselves were directly involved in the construction of brothels, current Prime Minister Abe and his defenders are willing to say there’s no evidence to back up the claims of former sex slaves.

Why don’t they just come out and say it? Those women are liars. That’s what’s being said.

Just as the debate over the Nanjing massacre has gotten bogged down in numbers and a few photos to the exclusion of most other evidence, the comfort women issue has essentially become a payroll argument.

The real issues are, lest some readers should be led astray by red herring: Did the Japanese Imperial Army or did it not torture and kill noncombatants in Nanjing in December 1937 and January and February 1938?

And did the Japanese Imperial Army keep a number of involuntary sex workers throughout the War?

The frustrating thing is that there would be no real negative consequence to Japan’s owning up to past misdeeds. It’s not as if anyone not inclined to wear blinders in support of an infallible Japan believes the tripe of the current kantei or people such as Mr. Komori anyway. In the eyes of the rest of the world, Japan would probably get credit for coming clean and making a sincere attempt to make amends and move on. After all, the fact that wartime issues are still such dominant ones for Japan is primarily Japan’s fault.

What Japan Needs to Do

Issue a formal, unambiguous apology, from the highest level, the Prime Minister himself, to be promulgated by the Chief Cabinet Secretary and the Foreign Minister, not only for atrocities committed during the War, but for obfuscation afterwards. Governments can and do apologize for the actions of their predecessors. The apology shold include a sincere statement of profound regret and remorse. There should be no qualifying statements in it whatsoever.

Renew the Asian Women’s Fund, to which the Government of Japan was the primary donor, and continue to allow private donations. However, make the role of the Government of Japan in the Fund explicit and public. Make it clear that the Fund is an inadequate attempt to make amends for something wrong that was done by the Government of Japan. In the event that a former sex slave who had filed previous claims has died in the interim, pay the same amount she would have received to an ongoing support fund for victims of similar crimes. (Perhaps the victims of human trafficking in Japan?) Make it clear that the money constitutes an admission of guilt and an apology.

Have the Prime Minister, on visits to at least South Korea and China, repeat the apology and express a hope that Japan and its neighbors can move forward into a new era having accepted the errors of the past. In China, make it explicit that this apology includes the Nanjing massacre.

Make donations to existing museums and monuments to the victims of Japan’s war crimes.

Make no attempt to censor or inhibit any media projects related to Japan’s war crimes, inside or outside of Japan, either through direct intervention or pressure.

Insist that public school history textbooks and school curricula addressing the War or issues related to it give equally proportionate space and attention to episodes of Japan’s wrongdoing as to episodes favorable to Japan. For instance, if the Battle of Okinawa gets two pages, the Occupation of Nanjing should get two pages. If the legacy of the atomic bombings gets three pages, the legacy of sexual slavery should get three pages.

Why Japan Should Do This

There are two main reasons Japan should thoroughly embrace its wartime guilt, both of benefit to Japan. The first is directly diplomatic and the second is also diplomatic, although less directly practical.

First, hearts and minds. A good public image helps diplomacy. While Japan’s neighbors, particularly China and the two Koreas will surely continue to use Japan as a useful diversion from domestic troubles, Japan could stand up and be the “bigger man.” By having the Foreign Ministry promulgate and promote the apology, sooner or later, even people in repressed countries will begin to hear of it.

Being the “bigger man” will make it harder for Japan’s opponents to legitimately oppose things Japan wants to do, such as gain a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. Not that an apology would immediately remove a Chinese veto, but it would certainly not hurt.

Japan’s neighbors would surely like closer economic and even political ties. It is possible that such abject public remorse on the part of Japan would give elements within the Chinese and South Korean governments who would like to see a warmer relationship with Japan a little more ammunition.

In dealings with the West and other wealthy nations, Japan could set itself up as an example of humane governance and prove a genuine interest in an accurate view of history. In the public eye in other wealthy democracies, Japan would appear more responsible. This is the second diplomatic reason to apologize. If Japan is going to pursue a more assertive foreign policy, which it should, it helps to have its image be as positive as possible. It is not at the moment, and has not often been in its modern history.

Behind the scenes, Japan could begin to push harder for similar concessions from other countries. As it stands, Japan appears to be insisting on being no better than the lowest common denominator in terms of honesty. Pointing out the shortcomings and atrocities of other governments, including former colonial powers in Europe and the the current dominant power, the United States, is childish. It is very much like complaining that one was not the only driver speeding when stopped by traffic police. It carries no weight, is irrelevant, and appears petty. Why can’t Japan be the first country to take a bold step in the right direction?

Japan has long been a major donor nation and is the single largest direct investor in China. If Japan can put some of the mess of history behind it, it could more effectively and aggressively promote these facts to its diplomatic advantage.

Many inside and outside of Japan rightly think that Japan is an economic, cultural, and possibly even a military giant punching far below its weight. Encumbered with history, instead of supported by it, this will not change. As Japan takes a more active role on the world stage, it absolutely has to reassure other nations in the region that a strong, assertive Japan is not only not a threat, but a potential boon.

Oh, and apologizing is the right thing to do, of course.

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Comment by ponta

May 3, 2007 @ 4:44 pm

There are some points I disagree, and other points I agree.

“Japanese troops occupying Nanjing killed as many as 300,000.”

“No! 26,000!”

As a debate over the death toll, I think there is nothing wrong with it. Even a Chinese expertexpert doubt the number CCP gives.
As an attempt to deny the atrocity, it is a bad argument. Even 100 civilians massacred is a massacre.

Other photos were cropped to focus on a child, leaving an adult out of the photo. Some show Chinese women smiling as they’re supposedly being dragged off into slavery. There are photos of Japanese soldiers giving things to Chinese people that weren’t publicized. Therefore, all Chinese are liars and the massacre never happened

If you are talking about Higashinakano’s book, it is not his argument. His argument is all the photos used
as an evidence is not about Nanjing Massacre. I think he made it clear somewhere that the adequacy of photos as an evidence is different from whether, how, why it happened. For the record, I disagree with his theory of Nanjing Massacre.

the victim is not a saint, not being a saint, we should assume she’s a whore, being a whore, she couldn’t have been raped. Case closed.

Be specific about who argued this way. Abe? Aso? Otherwise this sounds a straw-man argument.

On April 27th, the Japan Times published an AP article explaining that coercion had been used in Allied brothels of the Occupation into 1946. This may be true, but it hardly changes anything.

This is AP article and AP is not trying to help
Japan by presenting the article. Might it not be the case you are missing the point AP wants to convey?

First, the very articles that mention coercion in brothels set up for American troops include two salient points: that the brothels were set up by the Japanese government,

Let me just point out the fact;

Yosano Mitsuru, the head of the municipal government’s hygiene department was summoned by GHQ and asked to help apportion the prostitutes into separate districts to be reserved for use by U.S.

According to one calculation, the number of rapes and assaults on Japanese women amounted to around 40 daily while R.A.A. was in operation and then rose an average of 330 a day after it was terminated in early

(Embracing Defeat/John W. Dower)
So the US is not clean hand. But if this is not sufficient, You might want to read AGAINST OUR WILL

the coercion in question was women enslaved for sexual purposes by Japan were then turned around and sold to the Occupation forces.

Coercion might have happened but that was exceptions rather than rule, The women had little choice just as
Vietnamese women at Sin cities during Vietnam War had little choice.

. This may be true, but it hardly changes anything. In fact, the allegations, quite possibly true, serve as further evidence of misdeeds on the part of Japan’s government.

I think it certainly shed light on the fact people have not noticed:
Japan acknowledged it was wrong , set up the funds for victims and apologized.
The US has done nothing to help victims but now is trying to pass the resolution to make Japan make more apology.
Is the US using the issue of comfort women by Japan as a red herring to evade her responsibility?

Despite Japanese military documents that appear to describe exactly the sort of coercion being denied by Mr. Komori and others, despite the statements of former soldiers, and despite officials as high up as former Prime Minister Nakasone having said they themselves were directly involved in the construction of brothels, current Prime Minister Abe and his defenders are willing to say there’s no evidence to back up the claims of former sex slaves.

They all agree that Japanese troop had the brokers recruit women, had them set up and run the brothels. In some case, as with Nakasone, it might be that Japanese troop was directly involved with setting up the brothels. At the same time, It was Japanese policy that women be recruited of their own will, and in fact regulated illegal brokers. Unfortunately it
seems there were many cases where the brokers used deception and sometimes force, and there were cases where soldiers raped and forced women into brothels.

Why don’t they just come out and say it? Those women are liars. That’s what’s being said.

Let’s take Lee Yong-su who testified at the US congress for instance.
In her testimony to the book called “True story of comfort women” in 1992, she said she followed a Japanese man who wore a sort of People’s Army uniform with a combat cap because he gave her a dress and a pair of leather shoes. That was how she was recruited.
In her testimony in 2002, she testified to Japanese communist party that she was recruited at the point of a bayonet.
In her testimony in 2004 to Kyoto conference for the
testimonies of the harumoni(the former comfort women), she said she was recruited in 1944 by a man who looked like a soldier and worked as comfort woman
for three years. Note the war ended in 1945.
In her testimony in 2005 to the students of Doushisya university, she said a woman beckoned her and a soldiers blocked her mouth and the two took her away.
For some reason this time she said she quited brothels at the end of the war.
In her testimony in 2006 to the governor of Saitama, she said again she was recruited in 1944 and worked for 3 years.
In her testimony at the US congress in 2007 she said she was tortured with electric shocks by Oyaji, the brothel owner.
In her testimony at Harvard University, she said she was tortured with electric shocks by a soldier.
(Maybe Ooyaji was a soldier? or electric shocks was so rampant?)

I can give you other women’s cases which were inconsistent with the fact or/and the testimonies in other times.

Calling her a liar is too strong, It might be that she misremember, but it is a fact that she made an inconsistent remarks.

Did the Japanese Imperial Army or did it not torture and kill noncombatants in Nanjing in December 1937 and January and February 1938?

Japanese government admits it. It is on MOFA’s site.

And did the Japanese Imperial Army keep a number of involuntary sex workers throughout the War?

Abe says from the time he took office that he stands by Kono’s statement.

Japan would probably get credit for coming clean and making a sincere attempt to make amends and move on. After all, the fact that wartime issues are still such dominant ones for Japan is primarily Japan’s fault.

I agree, and Japan did. Which countries haven’t acknowledged yet they had the brothels in which women worked against their will. The US, Korea, Germany?

What Japan Needs to Do

My suggestion is that since Abe said he stands by human rights, he should declare to help the female victims of the military brothels in a wide sense not only by Japan but also by the US, Germany, Korea.

What is the point of all this?
I think it is victims’ remedy.
The comfort women by Japanese troop have a remedy either from Korean government and Japanese government.
Koizumi issued apology. Abe acnowledged from the time
he took office that he stood by Kono’s satatment.
It is up to comfort women to accept it or not.
They can reject it whatever.
Some media will keep ignoring the fact that Japan acknowleded its faults.
Suppose JPM apologized as you suggested, there are people who will say that it is not sincere because it was done due to the pressure from the media, abroad etc.
Notice, Korea government used her own fund to intimidate women not to accept the fund from women’s foundation of Japan.

I welcome objections.
thanks.

Comment by Matt

May 3, 2007 @ 10:40 pm

Question: Are you able to read Japanese newspapers and understand the issues at hand?

I would write a longer comment but I know you guys delete comments that show you up, so I am not going to put in the effort.

Comment by ken

May 4, 2007 @ 4:10 pm

Matt: Yes, we both can and do.

The only time we’ve deleted comments was when they have been libelous. I don’t think anyone’s ever ’showed us up’ - and I’m not sure why anyone would feel a need to even do such a thing.

Comment by DeOrio

May 4, 2007 @ 4:23 pm

Matt, take a look around the comments on various posts and you’ll see that not only do we accept, acknowledge, and make public all criticism and correction, we engage in relatively little moderation on grounds of content.

The only comments we have ever deleted were in response to one particular editorial. In that case, which is what I’m pretty sure you’re referring to, the commenter started off in a reasonable tone, then basically attempted to start a little flame war. In that case, we received complaints from other visitors who felt unable to engage in a discussion on the issue at hand and felt harassed by baseless attacks against them.
On one other occasion, we removed an entire article, along with all of its comments at the request of the author, a contributor. We explained why this was done and brought an end to the issue as there was no content issue involved. Once a contributor asks us to remove something he has written, it is not our privilege to refuse to do so nor does it serve any legitimate purpose for us to force that contributor to haggle over it.

We ignore irrelevant, inflammatory, or insulting comments and, publicly, encourage others to do the same, but we don’t delete or block comments. To this day, other than blatant spammers, we have blocked only one user and that was temporary.

If you feel that there’s some way in which you can or should show me up, do so. By all means, if you have something to say about the editorial I’ve written above, say it.

If you have a point related to the topic, even should it make me look like an idiot, your comment will stand and remain public.

Comment by Ken Worsley

May 4, 2007 @ 6:08 pm

Hey Ponta, thanks for your comment! I haven’t had time to get through all of it, but I will! One thing you wrote did strike me, and I think it’s an interesting question:

Is the US using the issue of comfort women by Japan as a red herring to evade her responsibility?

I would have to say no on one level: The issue was brought up in a resolution by one member of the US House of Representatives. As a Rep, he has a right to do that. Whether Mr Honda is trying to evade US responsibility, get votes from his local constituency or is doing what he thinks is the right thing, I think it’s hard to see a motivation larger than him.

On another level: The US media has used the issue as a bit of a red herring. There have been papers that I think exploited the issue to increase their sales. That’s hardly unusual in the media business, and they rarely seem to make an effort to actually get to the bottom of things.

At the top levels of the government, has the issue been used as a red herring? Absolutely not. No top ranking White House officials, nor the President have put any pressure on Japan’s leadership to apologize. Bush, especially, has done all he can in helping dissipate the criticism.

I don’t think the US has any responsibility to evade - in terms of political reality. Yes, the US did bad things during the war and also during the occupation. But, being on the winning side seems to get them off the hook. Japan does not have that luxury, and I think that’s part of what complicates what Japan can and can not say in terms of international diplomacy.

That said, I hope that the recent visit to Japan by Wen Jiabao will go some way in helping the two nations work together to overcome these historical issues.

Comment by Daniel

May 4, 2007 @ 9:31 pm

Being the “bigger man” will make it harder for Japan’s opponents to legitimately oppose things Japan wants to do, such as gain a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

Somehow I doubt those in power in Japan see it that way, or there just isn’t enough of a consensus to act on it. or they just don’t want the whole blame game to come up again.

Japan has other issues, and other treaties that it has not held itself up to, such as on human rights and abductions. I don’t see them getting anywhere until these things are worked out. It would be pretty easy to hold up a Japanese bid based on these issues.

Sounds like come commentator has a chip on his shoulder…I’m still waiting to see him show you up!

Comment by DeOrio

May 6, 2007 @ 3:20 am

Ponta, Daniel, I just got back from a brief trip out of town. I want to reply to both of you adequately, but it’s 3:15 a.m. Rest assured, I’ll get back to you both tomorrow.

Comment by DeOrio

May 6, 2007 @ 3:14 pm

Ponta, sorry it took me so long to get back to you.

As a debate over the death toll, I think there is nothing wrong with it. Even a Chinese expertexpert doubt the number CCP gives.
As an attempt to deny the atrocity, it is a bad argument. Even 100 civilians massacred is a massacre.

There’s nothing wrong with debating the death toll is an eventual part of figuring out what happened. Ideally, it would be possible to find out who, exactly, did what, exactly, to whom, exactly. That’s unlikely, though, and that’s not the way the death toll debate has been used by the Chinese government or by those who deny the Nanjing massacre.
I absolutely agree that the CCP has lied about numbers in Nanjing and probably also exaggerated the frequency of the most gruesome occurrences. Sadly, though the CCP’s lying about numbers is used by deniers to say that the massacre must not have happened because the CCP says it did and they lie. Even worse are the claims made by some people that, because the CCP lies and the CCP is made up of Chinese people, Chinese people are liars.

When anyone, especially a Diet member, gives a really low number solely because he can’t believe the higher estimates, that’s disingenuous and that’s using the number to shift the conversation away the unpleasant reality of what happened and onto numbers, which are sterile. In the end, a dispute over the number of people killed is no excuse for the refusal of Japan’s government to come to terms with what happened.

If you are talking about Higashinakano’s book, it is not his argument. His argument is all the photos used as an evidence is not about Nanjing Massacre. I think he made it clear somewhere that the adequacy of photos as an evidence is different from whether, how, why it happened.

I’m ambivalent on Higashinakano. I haven’t read his book, so I can evaluate him only based on his TV appearances, which is not sufficient to pass judgement on the man himself.

What worries me is the message being sent. Higashinakano does, it’s true, say that the issue of photo authenticity is separate from the issue of whether or not the massacre occurred, but it really seems like a disclaimer, rather than an attempt to remain academic.

His central point is correct: photos have been doctored - some blatantly, some minorly - and photos not of the Nanjing massacre have been called photos of the Nanjing massacre.

However, the impression his presentations leave is not of reconsideration of photos being necessary, but that the massacre probably didn’t occur. It was Higashinakano himself who said it seemed unlikely that a particular photo of Chinese women smiling in the back of an ox cart showed them being taken into any kind of servitude because they were smiling. That particular point is so asinine, so inaccurate, and so clearly biased that it’s hard to call Higashinakano a disinterested observer looking for the truth.

More worrying than Higashinakano himself is what people take away from what he says and that can get out of hand. The argument that, in the absence of concrete criminal proof, we should assume nothing happened is frequently made in the blogosphere, on TV, and in books.

We have to be just as concerned about public opinion as we are about what “experts” say. Governmental ackowledgement of what happened would go a long way in that direction.
____

My comment about the rape victim was an analogy to the conflation of dishonesty on one topic with dishonesty on another that is often used, viz. if the CCP lies about numbers, it must be lying about the very existence of the massacre. The analogy I used was my own, not a quote or an analogy used by any official as far as I know.
_____

This is AP article and AP is not trying to help
Japan by presenting the article. Might it not be the case you are missing the point AP wants to convey?

I didn’t say that the AP article was trying to help the government, but that it had been widely interpreted that way. I’m fairly certain you saw as many blog posts and comments saying, “Ha! The US did it, too,” as I did, which, as you point out, was not really the point of the article.

There’s always the content question, though. Why run that article at that time? Was there anything new in it? I’m not saying that the AP is trying to help or hinder either side of the debate, but deciding what to run and when to run it is the easiest and most common form bias in any medium.

Most likely, the AP ran the story because it was about the US and a WWII-related issue.

Re: the US having a clean hand.

I absolutely, fully agree that the US has blood and dirt all over its hands - from the beginning of its history until today. The US, in that regard is not much different from any other country. Americans are every bit as capable of rape and violence as anyone else.

I would point out, though, that, while GHQ surely knew about the brothels and should have known that coercion was probably involved, even the Dower examples you cite show a request for segregation, which is different from a request for recruitment.

That there were rapes committed by US troops is not in debate - there were. The question is what causal effect the brothels had. While it is possible that the brothels limited rape, but it is also possible that the brothels created an atmosphere in which the objectification of Japanese women became the norm and soldiers did things they would not have normally done.

I think what we have is a massive failure on the part of the American authorities to control their men appropriately, combined with reprehensibel behavior on the part of the soldiers who raped or committed other crimes.

No one knows the answer, but I wonder what would have happened had the American leadership demanded good behavior from its men and the Japanese authorities decided not to promote prostitution.

To repeat, though, my interest in and concern with issues related to Japan and the War is in no way any kind of attempt to draw attention away from or mitigate American wrongdoing.

The next points are where I start to disagree a bit more, but I’m going to break this up, so it’s not too long. I’ll finish this reply soon, though - after a lunch break.

Comment by DeOrio

May 6, 2007 @ 4:33 pm

I think it certainly shed light on the fact people have not noticed:
Japan acknowledged it was wrong , set up the funds for victims and apologized.

Oh, come on. The Kono statement acknowledged that the military was involved in the coercion of sex slaves, but it did not acknowledge that Japan was wrong. Furthermore, Japan’s apologies have been along the lines of, “This happened and that is regrettable.” The apologies never express remorse, accept responsibility, or, most important, sound sincere.
In the case of the current administration, every conciliatory or apologetic statement is paired with its opposite. It’s always, “This happened, but. . .”

I don’t personally know any former sex slaves, but I’m guessing that what they’re waiting for is an apology as opposed to a hedged, reluctant, acknowledgement of a well-known fact.

The US has done nothing to help victims but now is trying to pass the resolution to make Japan make more apology.

Really? I think Ken addressed some parts of this, but I’ll respond as well.
First, what victims? Is the US obligated to help the victims of Japan’s crimes? In some, albeit not many, cases, it has, by allowing immigration. Admittedly, it is to America’s shame that it did not grant asylum to people from China, Korea, Southeast Asia, even the Philippines, which had been an American colony.

America’s victims? The US allows those with legitimate claims of being the children of American soldiers entry to the US and requires those soldiers to pay child support while the children are young.
Numerous books, movies, lectures, university courses, articles, periodicals, and more have been published, printed, promoted, promulgated, and otherwise passed around the US detailing American crimes - real and imagined. The US government has not censored these and the US public has widely accepted some.

The US government has, for instance, officially and unambiguously apologized to the Japanese-Americans interned during WWII. By the standards of the Kono statement, the US government has apologized for slavery and the massive forced relocation of and brutality toward American Indians. These are not considered apologies in the US, though, because, much like the Kono statement, they are acknowledgements of fact, rather than apologies.

I’m going to stick up a bit for America here and say that we all know about America’s war crimes and America’s wrongdoing primarily because of American reporters, working for American companies, broadcasting stories in America to an American audience without the American government stopping it. Yes, parts of the government try to block some things, but they are often fought by other parts of the government. Few countries in the world can match the US for its willingness to officially allow, even promote, criticism of the US. I love Japan and there’s a lot I admire about it, in many ways it has a lot to teach the US, but in terms of transparent government and press freedom on a long-term basis, the US and Japan are not even running in the same race.

Now that I think of it, why doesn’t some Diet member introduce a resolution calling for an American apology?

Sorry, that was off-topic.

It is important to recognize that the US government is not calling for anything from Japan. When we talk about the US government, in terms of foreign policy, we’re usually talking about the Executive Office of the President (EOP), which ultimately includes all of the US’s executive functions - the military, the foreign policy apparatus, law enforcement, the guys who make the comic books about conserving water - the whole kit and kaboodle.

The executive branch does not like the resolution currently in the US. It wants to keep Japan happy and close.

Even if you extend the US government to include the other branches of government, it is not trying to make Japan apologize.

Mike Honda and his supporters want to demand an apology. Congress is accepting testimony from former sex slaves. The US government is not trying to make Japan apologize.

I would say that Japan hasn’t really apologized. Koizumi wrote a letter to an individual, expressing personal regret. Why is it that when Koizumi signs a letter, “Koizumi Junichiro, Prime Minister of Japan,” it counts as a government apology, but when he signs the Yasukuni guestbook “Koizumi Junichiro, Prime Minister of Japan,” that’s private?

Abe accepted the Kono statement, which wasn’t much in the way of an apology, although it was an important step. Abe also accepted the Kono statement without recanting his pre-PM calls for its rejection and while issuing other public statements that show he doesn’t really accept it. His acceptance of the Kono statement is glaringly insincere.

Look at what this has come down to. Seriously, haggling over dates with old women. Is anyone suggesting she was not a “comfort woman”? Is it not possible that she was given a dress and shoes, and held at boynet point, and dragged? Is not possible, even likely, that she doesn’t remember what exactly happened when? I’m guess a lot of things happened to her and she just doesn’t remember the exact chronology.

Abe’s “narrow” definition of coercion is nothing but a way for him to say that the people in power at the time did nothing wrong. If women were in a position in which they had no choice and were cajoled into prostitution, that’s coercion. If women were lied to or not told what they were getting into, that’s coercion. If women were prevented from leaving, that’s coercion.

Given that direct, narrow coercion was an undisputed part of the civilian prostitution sector, and even the recruitment of some geisha, prior to the War, I find it incredible that anyone would believe that suddenly, during a massive war, poor foreign women were given better treatment than had been given to poor Japanese women just a few years before.

Finally, as for the sincerity of the apology involved, there are a number of ways sincerity can be demonstrated - the enactment of laws, as in Germany and Austria (although I am wary of those particular laws), an ongoing public fund instead of a somewhat hushed grant, and, most important, the cessation of official statements by the country’s leaders that directly contradict any and all apologies and acknowledgements of wrongdoing.

P.S. The fund for victims everywhere is a fine idea. The German government has paid resitution to many of its former sex slaves, though. Good luck getting South Korea to admit that anything wrong was done on their part.

Comment by ken

May 6, 2007 @ 5:16 pm

Why is it that when Koizumi signs a letter, “Koizumi Junichiro, Prime Minister of Japan,” it counts as a government apology, but when he signs the Yasukuni guestbook “Koizumi Junichiro, Prime Minister of Japan,” that’s private?

Because he says so and it fits in with the agenda of whoever is arguing a point.

DeOrio: You bring up the way in which reporters in the US (and elsewhere I would add) have been able to freely publish regarding sensitive events in which the government was involved in some sort of wrongdoing. I think this is an interesting read and just the tip of the iceberg on political pressure that has gone a long way in Japan on getting media outlets to not investigate and report on what went on: http://www.japanmediareview.com/japan/blog/Events/682/

Comment by ponta

May 6, 2007 @ 6:22 pm

DeOrio
Thanks
Let me focus on the issue of the comfort women.

I would point out, though, that, while GHQ surely knew about the brothels and should have known that coercion was probably involved, even the Dower examples you cite show a request for segregation, which is different from a request for recruitment.

It seems GHQ requested to recruit women and set up RAA.
戦勝者の命令は絶対である。僅か一、二週間の間に 軍の兵隊のためにワシントン・ハイツ等という名の宿舎の建設が命令され、将 たちのためには、洋式のトイレの住宅を接収し、提供した。

敗戦の年のクリスマス、司令部の将 から呼ばれて“ヨシワラ”の状態の 告を命ぜられた。もちろん、その地区は焦土と化していた。命令は宿舎を って、 軍の兵隊のために、“女性”を集めろということ った。

Oh, come on. The Kono statement acknowledged that the military was involved in the coercion of sex slaves, but it did not acknowledge that Japan was wrong. Furthermore, Japan’s apologies have been along the lines of, “

Kono’s statement

The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

I wonder why it does not count as apology.

Really? I think Ken addressed some parts of this, but I’ll respond as well…..

So how many average American knew GIs were using comfort station in Japan?
How many average American know GI’s sin cities in Vietnam?

The wire service reported that bitter words” were expressed at the first meeting. “The
miserable conditions of war have forced our people to sell everything - their
wives, children, relatives and friends - for the American dollar,” a woman
educator was quoted.

Reporter Arnett saw the gradual acceptance of U.S. military-controlled and -regulated brothels as a natural outgrowth of what he called “the McNamara theory”

They were recruited by the province chief, who took his payoff, and were channeled into town by the mayor of Lai Khe, who also got his cut. The American military, which kept its hands partially clean by leaving the procurement and price arrangement to Vietnamese civilians, controlled and regulated the health and security features of the trade. “The girls were checked and swabbed every week
for VD by Army medics,” my informed source told me approvingly.

(From “against our will” I cited before)
And how many average American know the American Town and comfort station during Korean War?

U.S. military-oriented prostitution in Korea is not simply a matter of women walking the streets and picking up U.S. soldiers for a few bucks. It is a system that is sponsored and regulated by two governments, Korean and American (through the U.S. military).

The”debt bondage system” is the most prominent manifestation of exploitation

women cannot leave prostitution at will.

Still others were physically forced into prostitution by flesh-traffickers or pimps who waited at train and bus stations, greeted young girls arriving from the countryside with promises of employment or room and board, then”initiated” them–through rape–into sex work or sold them to brothels

(from “Sex Among Allies” by Katharine H. S. Moon )

the South Korean army also operated its own “military comfort system” during and until immediately after the Korean War, from 1951 to 1954. …the South Korean army’s military comfort women system may be indeed the “unfortunate offspring” of the Japanese.
However, I would suggest that its historical roots are much deeper than the colonial period….We should not ignore the historical depth of the Korean masculinity sexual culture that instituted the kisaen system more than one thousand years ago.

And as you know they also worked for UN soldiers.

I am not talking about children born between American soldiers and local women, I am talking about the local women who were recruited and was placed to the situation in the same way comfort women under Japanese rule.
Did the US government apologize for that to the former prostitutes?

The US government has not censored these and the US public has widely accepted some.

just off the topic, if you want to know the strict censorship the US government did during the occupation,
閉された言語空間 will provide a sketch of it from the US archive. And Tatoo on black is a a good short story about the women who was raped during the occupation.

It is important to recognize that the US government is not calling for anything from Japan.

I agree, but the resolution is symbolic for many Japanese.

. Is anyone suggesting she was not a “comfort woman”? Is it not possible that she was given a dress and shoes, and held at buayant point, and dragged? Is not possible, even likely, that she doesn’t remember what exactly happened when? I’m guess a lot of things happened to her and she just doesn’t remember the exact chronology.

The point is she has changed testimony in a way that will be in more line with the story to bash Japan.
Lee said at first she followed a man with Kokuminfuku, which shows that he was a private person. But later she changed her testimony, and she said she was forced at the point of a bayonet, which would be in line with the story by which you can conveniently bash Japan.
Lee said she had worked for 3 years since 1944. That means she worked as a prostitute after the liberation. That shows in part it is likely she was voluntary from the start, but at the hearing in the US, she said she quited comfort station when the war ended.
Now it might be that she just misremember. In the collection of testimonies which a Korean professor examined, the professor said out of 40 women, he dropped 21 women because they faintly remember. As a side note, Lee happened to be one of the women who testified in the book, she didn’t say she was recruited forcibly by a soldier.

Now if the official records show that Japan as a policy didnt systematically kidnapped women and Japan had a policy that women be recruited of their own will, and Japanese police regulated and arrested such illegal brokers, Japanese brokers said it was on volountary bass, and if woman has changed testimonies or they faintly remember, then why do people like Honda want to generalize that Japanese troop systematically forced women into the brothel?
The reasonable assumption is, just like sin cities in Vietnam, that the troop let/had the brokers recruit women and run the brothels, but in some cases there were cases women were raped by military officers.

If women were in a position in which they had no choice and were cajoled into prostitution, that’s coercion.

That is exactly what happen in sin cities in Vietnam and in Korea after liberation in Japan during the occumapation. The women had little choice. For that, Koizumi apologized.
As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.
If this is not an apology what is?
And where is the US and Korean presidents’ apology to the former comfort women victimized by the two governments? If there is a site to show their apology, I would like to know it.

My opinon is that this is just a shabby political show fueled by Korean hatred toward
Japan,
I have no hesitation to talk about war crimes and violatoin of human right , but if we really want to talk about such violations of women’s right by military as this , why don’t we talk about it from the world perspcective?
Honestly I think this is a queer game, the politicians whose governments have not acknowledged nor apologized for the crimes are demanding more apologies from the the government who has already apologized for the crimes of the same kind.

Comment by ken

May 6, 2007 @ 7:30 pm

Ponta…oops…I tried to close a <strong> tag that was open in your comment and I think I screwed up the encoding on the Kanji. Could you post that bit again? Sorry about that…

Comment by ken

May 6, 2007 @ 7:40 pm

Ponta, regarding the wording of the Kono Statement itself: I agree with you that it was worded as an apology, and could have turned into one. I think there are many reasons why it is not viewed by an apology by some people, and these reasons include:

1) It was issued by the Chief Cabinet Secretary, and not the Prime Minister

2) It was never adopted by the Diet, nor by the Cabinet itself

3) There has been talk of ‘withdrawing’ or re-examining the Kono Statement by members of the LDP, including the current Prime Minister

4) There is a faction in the government that vocally says it does not support the statement, and does sometimes make public statements in that vein.

Of course, most governments have factions like this, but it seems strong enough in Japan to make the outside world wonder if the apologies are real, or if they are mere gestures.

I’m not saying either way, but I can understand how some folks outside of Japan draw that conclusion.

Comment by ponta

May 6, 2007 @ 7:53 pm

ken
thanks

Of course, most governments have factions like this, but it seems strong enough in Japan to make the outside world wonder if the apologies are real, or if they are mere gestures.

It makes me wonder why the journalists of Korea and the US are nitpicking Japan’s apology when their countries have not acknowledged their own crime of the same kind nor have they issued apology.
Some people want to change the part of Kono’s statement or want to issue a new statement based on the fact.
Kono’s statement gave an impression that Japan as a policy systematically abducted women for the brothels ,which was not the case.
But apology and remorse would not change as Abe said.

“I, as prime minister of Japan, express my apologies, and also express my apologies for the fact that they were placed in that sort of circumstance,”

Comment by ken

May 6, 2007 @ 9:39 pm

Ponta, I don’t think there has ever been any serious international diplomatic pressure on the US to admit to, let alone apologize for, any wrongdoing. For one part, it was very difficult for post-war export-based nations to upset their largest customer. Although China is certainly rising as a market force, that’s unlikely to change anytime soon.

Mainstream US media is full of all sorts of voices, but there are always advertisers to worry about.

Some people, for example Chalmers Johnson in Blowback, have pointed out where US wrongdoing has created dislike of the US amongst the people of other nations, but in this case what we see is more of an anthology of US foreign policy gone wrong while focused on short-term goals.

As far as Korea goes, that’s way outside of my sphere of knowledge.

I don’t think that true apologies and true remorse would go unheeded, but I don’t think they are likely to come. It is not politically expedient, in the domestic arena, for Japanese politicians to take such a stance.

Comment by ponta

May 7, 2007 @ 1:23 am

Ken
Thanks

I don’t think there has ever been any serious international diplomatic pressure on the US to admit to, let alone apologize for, any wrongdoing. For one part, it was very difficult for post-war export-based nations to upset their largest customer.

Right, that is why I said it was just a political show.
The US journalists who criticize Japan for this issue
do not have sufficient knowledge on it and a journalist like Onishi of NYT has his political agenda.
Korea is demanding apology that she has no intention to accept. Note that Korea intimidated comfort women not to accept the funds from Japan.They are not concerned with the welfare of the women;the Korean prostitutes victimized after the liberation has rarely been considered a bit.
Japanese journalists who bashes Japanese government for it have also has a political agenda:they want to use this to topple the LDP.
Ironically there is one thing that is common to them all: They don’t give a damn about the victims who have not been atoned for, though they are saying that is what Japan should do, make sincere reparation for a sin.—they are not sincere at all. .

Comment by ken

May 7, 2007 @ 3:03 am

Note that Korea intimidated comfort women not to accept the funds from Japan.

And Taiwan…even Onishi admitted this much!

Ironically there is one thing that is common to them all: They don’t give a damn about the victims who have not been atoned for

That’s a heavy accusation, and in many cases I agree with you. There’s a lot of political/career capital to be mined throughout the issue.

So, what do you think: Does Mike Honda care?

Comment by ponta

May 7, 2007 @ 6:37 am

ken
Thanks

So, what do you think: Does Mike Honda care?

As many people have pointed out, he is doing for his constituents who are mainly made up of Korean Americans, and he does not accuse China because he is receiving money from China oriented interest group.
off the topic,
One thing that is good about Japanese Americans like Honda, and Francis Fukuyama is they feel free to criticize Japan just as native Japanese freely criticize Japan: that is the difference between oversea Koreans and native Koreans. I just don’t understand why oversea Koreans who live in the liberal country like the U.S., for that matter, the expats in Korea, have formed the belief that reflects Korean ultra-nationanlism.

Comment by Adamu

May 7, 2007 @ 11:34 am

It’s true that Japan uses a lot of red-herring arguments, and I agree that constantly changing the subject when you’re trying to ask a simple question is extremely annoying (I feel like it’s an extension of what a good number of people here do anyway). It’s refreshing to hear an argument calling for complete clarity and directness, but as always (and as I suspect you understand) the argument for complete openness is not realistic.

Ending the red-herring practice will not help Japan all that much, except maybe in dealing with Americans who see it as petty (all the while continuing it at home). “Coming clean” and debating “honestly” would upset a lot of people in Japan, for one thing. Any sort of uber-apology as you’re suggesting would require a good deal of consensus for it to pack any punch, and how forthcoming is that from within the LDP and its backers?

And coming clean is most certainly not a secret move that would place Japan in the UNSC or achieve any other goals that require the cooperation of Asian neighbors. Japan already has a great relationship with the US and the West, and the only real thorns in its side are China and Korea, who are unlikely to forgive Japan for WW2 actions, or abandon their sense of rivalry with Japan, no matter how suddenly honest and affable Japan becomes. The fact is that enmity between the two governments and Japan is real, and I think playing out red-herring arguments is preferable to airing more tangible grievances in public, which would no doubt surface more prominently if these issues were cast aside.

As tired as comparing Japan’s Asian foreign relations to married couples might be, I think it’s worth asking — “Would you rather fight with your wife/husband about leaving the toilet seat up or about the time you slept with your ex during that brief separation?”

Comment by DeOrio

May 7, 2007 @ 11:58 am

Adamu, good points. You’re right that an apology such as I’ve called for is never going to happen. You’re also right that China and South Korea are always going to find some way to gripe about Japan - it’s convnient. Neither country, both with atrocities in their own, more recent pasts, has to deal with them much publicly if they can keep Japan’s WWII-era crimes on the front page.

Coming clean also wouldn’t net Japan that permanent seat or alter relations with the West or anything like that.
I agree with everything you said.

I think, though, that coming clean would change relations a bit with the West. I think it might also give Japan more diplomatic credibility should it enact a more assertive foreign policy in the future. Will it definitely? No. Could it? Yes.

On the domestic front, it seems that a majority of the population accepts that the military and government did bad things during the War and that such issues are neither a primary electoral concern nor even an everyday topic of conversation. Notice, for instance, the percentage of headlines in the Japan Times dealing with wartime issues, as opposed to in Japanese papers.
No politician in Japan needs to come clean on wartime issues to stay in office. Likewise, no politician is going to suffer at the ballot box because of it.

The only real danger is that those who would firebomb a house are among those who would surely oppose an unmitigated apology.

Comment by DeOrio

May 7, 2007 @ 12:02 pm

Ponta, one quick thing, then I’ll be back to reply in more depth - sin cities in Vietnam were terrible, American troops and commanders were wrong. American troops who raped, robbed, looted, or murdered there and in Japan were wrong, too, as were the leaders who failed to put a stop to it. The Us government should come clean on all such incidents, disclose all relevant records, and issue an unambiguous apology.

What does it have to do with what Japan did, though? To bring up the sin cities of Vietnam in response to a call for an apology from the Japanese government is exactly the sort of red herring I was originally talking about.

Comment by ponta

May 7, 2007 @ 3:21 pm

DeOrio
thanks

What does it have to do with what Japan did, though?

It does not change what Japan did.

To bring up the sin cities of Vietnam in response to a call for an apology from the Japanese government is exactly the sort of red herring I was originally talking about.

It is not, because we are talking about the prostitutes victimized by military. aren’t we?
Note that my argument is not that you did it too so I am not wrong. The fact is that Japan acknowledged it was wrong, apologized and set up fund for the victims.
It is red-herring, unfair, and nationalistic abuse to focus only on Japan.
Rather, it is strange, queer, nationalistic , politically biased, and morally inconsistent and questionable for politicians whose government has never apologized for the crime bash Japan, who has apologized for the crime of the same kind, while turning a blind eye on the crime their troop did.
Why should we miss the chance that “we”–Japanese, Americans, Koreans— can talk about the welfare of the victims together? Why is it that we can not talk about the U.S. case, Korean case, Germany’s case at the same time except for nationalistic. politically biased reason?

.

I

Comment by ken

May 7, 2007 @ 4:37 pm

Ponta, I very much agree with the sentiment of your last comment. On a personal level, which I’ve always tried to keep out of my comments on this website (in order to focus on political reality), I don’t believe much in governments, nationalities or passports. They don’t mean anything to me. I would rather see us treat these matters as human matters, like you say: without some nationalistic, politically based motivation.

But, I know that’s not realistic and that I hold rather uncommon/unpopular views of government, so I think it’s important to focus on the political realities.

I think you’re very right about us missing the chance to discuss things in terms of the big We. And I think that’s exactly what governments and politicians want.

Comment by DeOrio

May 7, 2007 @ 4:43 pm

You can talk about all sexual abuse by soldiers together. You can talk about any two countries together. You can compare and contrast what was done by the US and what was done by Japan or compare and contrast Korea and Germany. Those would all be perfectly valid inquiries.

We weren’t talking about prostitutes victimized by military men in general at all. We were talking about one specific issue - distraction techniques, specifically red herring used to avoid or mitigate governmental responsibility for WWII-era acts committed by Japan. Focusing on Japan in no way implies that only Japan has done such things or that Japan is bad.

A red herring is a distaction, a side issue or a separate issue brought up to draw attention away from the main issue. If the US government were to come under pressure for the recruitment of prostitutes in Vietnam and brought up the “comfort women,” that would be a red herring. Likewise, what the US did or did not do during the Occupation, much less in Vietnam, doesn’t change what Japan did or did not do, thus the issue of US actions is a red herring. The only reason to bring it up in the context of a discussion on Japan’s wartime actions is to deflect attention from the wartime government of Japan.

The Kono statement is the closest Japan has come to an official apology. It was never ratified by the Diet and had a number of prominent politicians vocally oppose it, including the current Prime Minister. When Abe says he accepts the Kono statement, it lacks meaning because he spent so long trying to have it retracted and, even as Prime Minister, makes comments like the “narrow” vs. “broad sense” coercion comment and his other comments denying that Japan did anything wrong during the War in other contexts. Every time he “apologizes,” it is matched by a denial. Surely you can see whay so many people would find him less than trustworthy on the issue and would not consider the apologies “real.” Furthermore, no act of the Diet has established an actual, official apology. Bill Clinton pushed for a US government apology for slavery and said personally that he felt awful about it. A number of American politicians have said similar things, but Congress has never passed a resolution officially apologizing, therefore, the US has not apologized.

Japan has not officially apologized. Koizumi can write all the letters he wants, Abe could stop his denials and issue only the apologies. Kono could become PM and apologize all day, every day. But the apology becomes official when it is adopted by the Diet as official, which has not yet happened.

The opposition to the Kono statement in the Diet makes it seem like, contrary to accepting responsibility, the Diet seized an opportunity to deny it.

The Asian Women’s Fund was set up like a legal settlement in spirit. There was no direct acknowledgement tied to the money, it was kind of like, “Oh, you were a comfort woman? Here’s some money.”
It seems to me that the comfort women are looking for an end to the qualifications. Look at what Abe said in the US, “The first half of the 20th century was a time of human right s violations and Japan was no exception.”
That’s couched in so many protective layers! It’s unclear, it’s almost passive. It continues the tone of, “We’re sorry this happened,” as opposed to, “We’re sorry we [the Government of Japan] did this.”

It doesn’t matter what other countries do.

Back to the resolution in the House, let me make this clear: the US government is in no way, shape, or form calling on Japan to do anything related to any wartime issue. The US government would like everyone to forget that Japan was on the other side in WWII.

Mike Honda and a Korean women’s group are calling on Japan to apologize. Mike Honda has introduced a resolution to the US House. It has not even yet been voted on. Even if it reaches a vote and passes, it is not a bill. It will not go to the Senate. It is no kind of law. It provides for no punishment. It merely says the US House believes that this happened and thinks Japan should apologize. It is in absolutely no way an instrument of American policy or reflective of any US government stance against Japan.

The US government has said nary a word about the issue. I don’t see whay you’d call that unfair, much less nationalistic or a red herring.

Beyond that, the US government has tried its own for criminal acts in wars, including rape. The US Congress has had hearings over issues related to every recent war the US has been in. Those hearings have included investigations into criminal activities on the part of US troops.

The US and Japan are neither accused of nor suspected of the same activity. No one is saying individual Japanese soldiers should be tried for going to prostitutes. In fact, one of the main bones of contention is that the “comfort women” were not all prostitutes - many claim to have not been paid.

Comment by ponta

May 7, 2007 @ 10:15 pm

Doroid
Thanks

We weren’t talking about prostitutes victimized by military men in general at all

This is where we disagree. Why is it people constantly keep talking about only Japan’s case?
This is where where changing the subject, unfair narrowing the subject to distract the attention is coming in.
In particular, we can not miss the fact by any means that this resolution is introduced by the US congressman whose government has not acknowledged its wrongs, backed up by Koreans whose government has not acknowledged the crimes of the same kind. And this is where skewed political force is coming in .

The Kono statement is the closest Japan has come to an official apology.

As I quoted, Kono and Koizumi explicitly expressed the “apology and remorse”;they used the exact word, I don’t understand what’s more is need to be counted as apology.

It was never ratified by the Diet and had a number of prominent politicians vocally oppose it, including the current Prime Minister.

The point is those politicians who oppose Kono’s statement is not saying to retract the apology but reword it so that people understand what Japan did, and what Japan didn’t.
For instance, Honda says, “”This is the military of the Imperial government, the Imperial military’s policy, in capturing, coercing and kidnapping girls and women for the purpose of sexual slavery.”
He is talking about the exceptional cases in Indonesia where women were kidnapped and released two
months later by military itself.
But many people mistakenly believe that 200,000 women were abducted by way of Teishintai, woman workers brigades. But that is not the case.
It is like saying the US troop abducted Vietnamese women at Sin cities just because there were cases where GI raped women, or the Korean and US troop systematically abducted women during Korean War just because there were cases where women were in fact raped and forced into the brothel by the soldiers.

Talking about historical fact, accepting what has happened and apologizing for it does not mean he wants to evade the responsibility for what happened.

Japan has not officially apologized. Koizumi can write all the letters he wants, Abe could stop his denials and issue only the apologies. Kono could become PM and apologize all day, every day. But the apology becomes official when it is adopted by the Diet as official, which has not yet happened.
This is where endless game of apology comes in.
First Korea demanded that Japan issue the statement in which Japan somehow admit coercion to end this issue.—- Kono did.
PMMurayama issued an apology

This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed.

PM Hashimoto issued an apology

I would like to convey to Your Excellency my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

Koizumi issued an apology.
As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

Abe said he stood by Kono’s statement but in addition , told the historical truth, and now some people say the apologies were not insincere and the Diet needs to issue an apology.—There is no end. there is no end because Korea has been changing the criteria to end the issue.

Besides, I think for instance, the US has right to say African people were also involved in making people slave, I think the US has right to correct the story of No guri massace told by Journalism, but insisting on the historical truth does not mean the US was not wrong, the US does not admit it was wrong, the US has no intention to apologize.
The victims have full right to receive apology but people have no right to make up story to demonize a nation.

let me make this clear: the US government is in no way, shape, or form calling on Japan to do anything related to any wartime issue. The US government would like everyone to forget that Japan was on the other side in WWII.

Mike Honda and a Korean women’s group are calling on Japan to apologize. Mike Honda has introduced a resolution to the US House. It has not even yet been voted on. Even if it reaches a vote and passes, it is not a bill. It will not go to the Senate. It is no kind of law.

Yes I understand it is just the US congress that will be calling on Japan to do more apology and the US president is not doing that.
So as I said before the best way for Japan is 黙殺, because it is not binding, and it is useless and even harming the relation to demand the US stand on more firm moral ground.
Honda will be happy if the resolution passes.
So everyone is okay and we can go ahead.

I don’t see what you’d call that unfair, much less nationalistic or a red herring.

First Honda’s move is backed up by nationalism of Korea.
Second accusing a country who apologized for the crime while ignoring its own fault is nationalistic.
But I don’t claim that the US as a whole is nationalistic. I think it is the most developed democratic country on the earth and that is one reason I want to ask what has become of the US with regards to this issue.

Beyond that, the US government has tried its own for criminal acts in wars, including rape. The US Congress has had hearings over issues related to every recent war the US has been in. Those hearings have included investigations into criminal activities on the part of US troops

Off the topic.
I respect your faith on the US troops, but you might as well hear the stories about the occupation period in Japan. The Japanese police was powerless to GI’s crimes, and the crime report was censored,
When I hear Japanese MP regulated and punished Japanese rapists in Nanjing, I don’t believe all of the story.

In fact, one of the main bones of contention is that the “comfort women” were not all prostitutes - many claim to have not been paid.

There aren’t as many comfort women who came forward as people think.
I believe there were cases that women didn’t receive the money as promised from the brokers just as Korean massage parlor women are enslaved and do not receive the money as promised from the brokers in many parts of the world. The bussiness is known as nasty.
Japanese troop regulated such illegal owners of the brothels, albeit insufficiently—It might have been better that the troop left all the dirty works to the local brokers and owners like the US troop.

Comment by ken

May 7, 2007 @ 11:32 pm

Yes I understand it is just the US congress that will be calling on Japan to do more apology and the US president is not doing that.

No…no…no…

It is not the US Congress calling on Japan to apologize. It is one resolution that has been introduced by one Representative. Even if the resolution is passed, it is still only approved by the House. Without Senate approval, it is still inaccurate to say that the “US Congress” is calling on Japan to apologize.

Comment by ponta

May 8, 2007 @ 6:48 am

Ken
Thanks.
So it won’t be resolution of the Congress, will it? That
might be better.

I have given it a thought a little bit further thanks to this discussion. Let me state my thought.

If the US House, or anybody, wants to play the role of the world judge, it should come clean hand and should pick up the topic fairly. It is red herring to say it is red herring to pick up other cases where the remedy for women are not provided while picking up the Japan’s case where the remedy was somehow offered.
But the fact is that some biased political force is going on when we talk about this issue. As I understand it, this issue is largely fueled by Korean anti-Japan policy. In this regard, Onishi of NYT did a good job.
And Korea will not stop this policy for the near future.
I have a feeling that the comfort women are being politically used by Korean nationalists. Without her intervention, many former comfort women accepted Japan’s apology and funds, though it might be that they were not 100% satisfied.
But it might be the case they sincerely want Japanese Diet to issue an apology.
Let’s take Ms Jan Ruff O’Herne, who testified at the hearing in the U.S. for instance. Her testimony is relatively consistent and there are official records.
She was taken by the military officers and made a prostitutes, but two months later the brothels was closed by a Japanese military officer from Tokyo on
suspicion that women were forced against the policy that women would be employed of their own will.
At the war tribunal Japanese brokers and officers were sentenced guilty, including the one who was sentenced death penalty and hanged dead.
But

Jan Ruff O’Herne, an Australian survivor, says, “I forgive the Japanese for the war time atrocities done to me. But I can never forget. It’s about getting an official and unambiguous apology from the Japanese government to get our dignity back.”

As a side,

Ms. Song says, “The official apology we are asking for is one directly addressed to the survivors from the Prime Minister of Japan as his government’s official representative, which cannot be disputed or recalled with the intention of redressing this issue with justice.”

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/comfort-women-survivors-friends-gather/story.aspx?guid=%7B27A0E693-03FA-4E9F-9478-05F6F8EB9A02%7D
After Abe’s apology,

SYDNEY, March 27 Kyodo

An Australian grandmother who was forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese military during World War II has welcomed Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s apology to so-called ‘’comfort women.'’

Speaking on local television, 84-year-old Jan Ruff O’Herne said Monday night the apology had given all such sexually exploited women their dignity back.

‘’It’s just fantastic news, I could hardly believe it,'’ Ruff O’Herne said.

‘’It means the comfort women, they’ve got their dignity back. We’ve been waiting for this for 60 years,'’ she said.

Abe reiterated Monday afternoon that his administration stands by a 1993 statement admitting that the Imperial Japanese Army was ‘’directly or indirectly'’ involved in setting up and running the brothels and transferring women to them.

Asked if the government has no intention of issuing an official apology, Abe told the parliamentary committee meeting, ‘’As the prime minister, I am apologizing here.'’

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2007_April_2/ai_n18771347

It seems she is not demanding the Diet to issue apology.

But what if other Koreans comfort women who testified
at the hearing in the US like Kim kunja, who, according to the record, was taken away by a Korean soldier,(I think she mistook a Korean broker in Kokuminfuku for a Korean soldier. in 1942, there were few Korean soldier and and they had no leisure time recruiting women), being told by her adoptive father that she would find a job to work., or Lee yonsue, who, according to some records, followed Japanese man, shown a box of fancy clothes and shoes, who worked as a comfort women after the liberation, still insisted ,under no influence of Korean nationalism, that Japanese Diet should issue apology. They said the living condition was horrible and experienced unbearable experiences.

I think the victims deserve apology .Considering their sentiments, it might be hard for them to accept but I argue that they can not demand unproportional apology. For instance they can not demand endless apology.
Suppose women were seriously injured in a state-run factory in which there was no policy to injure the employee, and compensation and the apology by the head of the state are offered. Do they still have right to receive apology from the Diet because that is the way they want apology to be?

Comment by ponta

May 8, 2007 @ 11:44 am

correction

I think the victims deserve apology .Considering their sentiments, it might be hard for them to accept but For

I think the victims deserve apology, but I argue that they can not demand unproportional apology;though, it might be hard for them to admit it, considering their sentiments and painful experiences.

Comment by DeOrio

May 8, 2007 @ 7:56 pm

Ponta, sorry I haven’t gotten back to you at any length lately - it’s been a hectic few days.

Two quick points here:
1. Re: Talking about crimes committed by different nations, particularly the US and Japan, and my comment that we weren’t talking about what the US did.

This is where we disagree. Why is it people constantly keep talking about only Japan’s case?
This is where where changing the subject, unfair narrowing the subject to distract the attention is coming in.

I meant in the context of this particular editorial and debate.
You’re absolutely right that narrowing the subject can be just as effective a dodge as tossing up a red herring by widening the scope. However, I think there are reasonable and relatively constant boundaries that can be set.
I don’t think anyone is ignoring US crimes. Anything even remotely shady that the US does is sure to draw lots of attention. I also really don’t believe that setting US crimes aside is done to somehow unfairly focus on Japan. Basically, I think that, in terms of state-sponsored crime, no amount of attention is ever enough, let alone unfair. That goes for attention on the US as well as Japan.

However, I think the issue is too big to mean much if every similar case is included. There needs to be an idividual spotlight shone on Japan just as there needs to be an individual spotlight shone on the US.

If we want to, for instance, figure out what happened and seek redress of grievances committed by the US in Vietnam, it does no good to keep dragging comparable things done by the Soviets in Afghanistan into the equation.

This brings us to:
2.

I think the victims deserve apology, but I argue that they can not demand unproportional apology;though, it might be hard for them to admit it, considering their sentiments and painful experiences.

How could an apology to former sex slaves possibly be disproportionate. There is nothing anyone can do that would even begin to make up for what was done to those women. When the fact that the issue was hushed up for so long is added in, I don’t think there’s anything the “comfort women” could ask for that would be unreasonable, especially considering the current Prime Minister’s personal role in making their struggle for a mere apology more difficult.

They’re not calling for prison terms, executions, or even much in the way of money. They’re not even calling for anyone’s resignation. What is disproportionate about a sincere, official apology?

(This, of course, would apply to similar situations in any country, including the US.)

Comment by ponta

May 9, 2007 @ 10:01 am

DeOrio
Thanks

I meant in the context of this particular editorial and debate.

In a way yes.
But first it was very strange that in all the talk about this issue, among the US media and Korean media, there was few mention of their own faults of the same kind.
Second, AP article was an exception, but even the article was accused as a red herring.
It is this tendency that I am calling the queer, political biased forces.

How could an apology to former sex slaves possibly be disproportionate…….

Here I disagree.
I think just as punishment must be proportional to the crime, there is a limit victims can ask for.
And note that it is not comfort women but rather political groups behind them that are asking for further apology. And the political groups are changing the criteria to end the issue.
The first demand was Japan admit coercion somehow.
The second was to issue apology, When PM Murayama and Hashimoto made apology, they demanded PM should make it clear they are making it as PM. Koizumi made it clear he is making it as a prime minister of Japan.
When I was discussing it on Korean blogosphere, Fantasy, whose wife is Korean, suggested the emperor should make the apology. He said, advised by his wife that it would finally end the issue.(To this suggestion, I responded, who’s gonna apologize in case of German, Korea, the US)
They will forever be nitpicking.
Why? because IMO this is just a political game Korea wants to play, making use of people’s little knowledge of the matter and they don’t want to let the tool go.

Comment by ken

May 9, 2007 @ 12:26 pm

because IMO this is just a political game Korea wants to play, making use of people’s little knowledge of the matter and they don’t want to let the tool go.

If this is the case, then it seems that Japan is failing to communicate properly. If Japan could communicate properly, and Korea was simply playing a game, everyone would see through it.

Comment by ponta

May 9, 2007 @ 1:30 pm

Ken
Thanks

it seems that Japan is failing to communicate properly

Exactly. I think Japan is failing to communucate.
It is really hard to break with the game I-am-a-victim-you-can’t-say-it-to-me. Korea is using this victim “privilege” to the fullest in every corner of diplomacy, for instance, the name of east sea, or the territorial issue of Dokdo regardless of the fact they have nothing to colonization. And the tactics has been very effective.
For instance, Honda said that Japan had a policy to abduct women, which is not based on historical fact. But if Japanese politician deny it, s/he will be called a holocaust denier. But if you don’t say anything about it, it will pass as the truth in the international community. The way out is really hard.
I don’t think some of the Japanese righists who tried to deny atrocity during WWⅡ are right;they are harmful. But at the same time, I think
people who criticize Japan for WWⅡ also need to be self-critical.

Comment by Pellegrini

May 9, 2007 @ 10:42 pm

Has any Japanese prime minister ever issued a full, unqualified apology that was officially endorsed by the Japanese government?

Comment by ken

May 10, 2007 @ 12:19 am

Pellegrini: If by endorsed you mean a statement that was approved by a vote in the Diet, then the answer is no.

Comment by DeOrio

May 10, 2007 @ 10:30 am

Ponta, regarding your earlier comment, 95517.

I agree that punishment shoudl be proportionate to a crime, which leads me to two more questions:

First, what punishment, other than execution, is too severe for having sexually enslaved someone?

I would say that, if we were talking about a criminal trial involving the actual people who made actual decisions to enslave girls, life imprisonment would not be unreasonable.

However, of course, that is not the case. This is not a criminal trial and proceedings, at this moment, are not being brought against individuals. What is being asked for is an apology, which brings me to the second question.

Why is apologizing viewed as punishment?

If apologizing is an agonizing act, seen as fulfilling the terms of an imposed punishment, it will never be sincere.

If the Japanese government, or at least its leaders, feel they are being pressured into apologizing, they are unlikely to have any actual remorse for what their predecessors did. More likely, they are likely to feel resentment, especially since, as in the case of Abe, some of them so clearly feel that either any admission of wrongdoing hurts them or that they should be allowed to benefit from their forebears’ actions without bearing any responsibility for those actions.

Perhaps one reason that there is a focus on Japan at the moment is that so many members of the Diet, especially high-ranking members, are the children or grandchildren of those who were in charge during the War. When Abe ran for the presidency of the LDP and, hence, the Prime Ministership, one of his favorite speeches was about his father’s dream of becoming Prime Minister. He entered the Diet when his father died by becoming his father’s successor.

Taro Aso’s father used slave labor to build wealth and gain power, which resulted in Aso’s sister marrying into the extended Imperial family (the part that still has titles, though) and Aso himself being able to rise throught he ranks of the postwar government. It is safe to say that Aso would not be a Cabinet-level politician were it not for his incredible connections.

The list goes on. Japan is run, in large part, by elected officials who are the children of those who ran Japan before them. That’s a borderline aristocracy. These people haev wealth and power as the direct result of the foul deeds of their fathers. The same cannot be said of Korea, Germany, the US, or any other wealthy democracy. That is why the issue is more resonant in terms of Japan.

The power to end this lies in the hands of the voters of Japan, who, if they decide the issue is a priority, could decide not to vote for anyone whose father or grandfather was in power during the War. Or, better yet, not to vote for anyone who, in essence, inherited his position or has benefitted from participation in the old guard LDP faction system.

This is not likely, though, so, in the meantime, it is up to people who care to put pressure on those who don’t.

As for Japan being focused on, I don’t really think that’s true. Right now, yes, Japan is drawing the spotlight. It’s the world’s second-largest economy, with the fourth-largest military budget, it’s top ten in terms of population, it’s far and away the most powerful country in the region in most respects, it’s the only country in East Asia in such close affinity with the West, and it’s seeking a permanent seat on the UN Security Council as part of a new, more assertive foreign policy after decades of checkbook diplomacy under an official policy of pacificism, which followed it’s central role in the largest war in history.

Of course Japan is going to be in the spotlight, and of course Japan’s wartime activities are going to be brought up, especially since Japan went out of its way to avoid addressing those issues in the aftermath of the War.

Germany’s wartime activities are brought up every day, in every corner of the world. People who don’t even know that the US and UK fought Japan, know that Germany was run by the Nazis under Hitler. People who don’t even know when WWII was know that the Nazis committed the Holocaust. If you walk around an English-speaking country today and ask people for their images or impressions of Germany, I guarantee you a majority will mention Nazism in some respect.

I like you, I think you’re a very smart guy, but I really don’t understand how you can say that unfair attention is being focused on Japan while Germany is being given a free pass.

Kores definitely has some nutty politics going on, but most of the Korean military dictatorship’s crimes were against its own people, which is why it is unlikely to draw outside attention. Korea would be more accurately compared to Argentina or Chile than Germany or Japan in this respect.

The United States draws damnation with everything it does. The one thing people around the world can agree on is that the US deserves scrutiny. Abu Ghraib alone has probably drawn nearly as much ink (in English) as the “comfort women” issue and the “comfort women” issue had a head start of over five decades. The US has been condemned by foreign governments and has had its actions from all of tis conflicts closely scrutinized. While there are many crimes for which the US has yet to answer, it is simply not the case that American actions are being ignored because too much attention is being focused on Japan.

As for the AP article, I could see how that could be to the advantage of those seeking redress from Japan. However, I could also see how that couldbe very much to the advantage of Japan’s government. Yes, it implicates Japan, but the main focus of the story is that the US may have used Japan’s “comfort women.” The headline implies that the US was engaged in the same activity of which Japan has been accused. An activity of which the US has not even been accused. On the PR scale, I’d say that article was so much to Japan’s advantage that, when Ken joked that it had been written by Hogan & Hartsen, I gave it serious thought. I still do.

On a final point: setting the record straight. You’re right that it is unclear whether or not abduction was an actual government policy, but what is clear is that abductions occurred with the approval of high-ranking officials, that abductions were apparently widespread enough that they cannot be said to be the actions of a renegade here or a miscreant there, that recruitment for prostitution and the use of misleading information and economic pressure in such recrutiment was an official policy, that such “prostitutes” were often unpaid and often maltreated beyond the routine rape to which they were subjected, that some even died as a result of such maltreatment, and that no one was punished for such actions. We also know that, in at least one case, in Burma, it was a Japanese colonel who, apalled by what he saw, ended the practice there in 1944 by returning to Tokyo and putting pressure on parts of the military bureaucracy, which certainly makes it look like there was official condoning of the practice, if not an official policy in place.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Comment by ponta

May 10, 2007 @ 12:00 pm

DeOrio
I think your argument would be more convincing if you insisted the US, Korea, Germany, as well as Japan should apologize the former comfort women based on a vote in assembly

Comment by DeOrio

May 10, 2007 @ 7:18 pm

Ponta, I have, in this very thread, said that they should apologize for their crimes. Germany already has.

I didn’t put in the article or bring it up, though, because I wrote an editorial about a problem facing the Japanese government. What Germnny, Korea, and the US do has nothing to do with what Japan does. Is Japan unable or prohibited from acting on its own?

Are you insinuating that Germany, Korea, or the US are responsible for Japan’s sexual slavery?

Comment by ponta

May 10, 2007 @ 8:17 pm

DeOrio
I send you e-mail, informing you that I posted a long comment before the comment 96716 but it didn’t come up for some reason, so please check the spam filter .

Germany already has.

Could you give me the link where German apologized to the prostitutes exploited by German Army as I showed you three Japanese PMs apologized to the former comfort women?

Are you insinuating that Germany, Korea, or the US are responsible for Japan’s sexual slavery?

Were you saying Japan should apologize to the US?
I thought you were saying Japan should apologize, based on a vote in the diet, to the former comfort women exploited by Japanese troop.
I am saying your argument would be more convincing if you insisted the US, Korea, German, as well as Japan should apologize to the prostitutes exploited by their troops based on a vote in the assembly.

Comment by ken

May 10, 2007 @ 8:58 pm

Ponta, In terms of political expediency and regional diplomacy, I fail to see the connection between Japan issuing an apology and the US, Korea or Germany doing the same.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 2:50 am

Ken
Thanks.
what is better than setting up the fund and apologizing
to the victims who have never got remedy when people are insisting that Japan should apologize again to the comfort women for the comfort woman’s sake?
So after all is is all about diplomacy?

By the way, this is the second time I mailed to complaining that my comment didn’t appear, and even after mailing , in neither case my comment didn’t come up. I believe that is due to a technical reasons, could you check spam filter and mailing soft?

My comment was the comment on the comment 9662.
It was something like the following.

Why is apologizing viewed as punishment?

I don’t view apologizing as punishment.
The point is there is a limit on what a victim can ask for.

If apologizing is an agonizing act,,,,

Apologizing is not agonizing, the endless game is agonizing.

Perhaps one reason that there is a focus on Japan at the moment is that so many members of the Diet, especially high-ranking members, are the children or grandchildren of those who were in charge during the War. When Abe ran for the presidency of the LDP and, hence, the Prime Ministership, one of his favorite speeches was about his father’s dream of becoming Prime Minister. He entered the Diet when his father died by becoming his father’s successor.

I am in no way a fan of Abe, but he also said that Kishi was responsible for WWⅡ。
The power to end this lies in the hands of the voters of Japan, who, if they decide the issue is a priority, could decide not to vote for anyone whose father or grandfather was in power during the War.

Are you saying that they should not be elected?
I don’t like to see people elected just because they are entertainers, sons/daughters of famous politicians, but after all Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger might be a good governor despite his father.
And I don’t see the connection with this topic.

I really don’t understand how you can say that unfair attention is being focused on Japan while Germany is being given a free pass.

When the historians agree that German has the same, or worse system, but there is no apology or setting up
the fund for the former prostitutes, but the medial criticising Japan whose PMs apologized, in this regard, Germany is being given a free pass.

most of the Korean military dictatorship’s crimes were against its own people,

That does not mean they can forget, in particular when they are criticizing Japan for the crime of the same kind, saying that apology is not sincere while Korea has been dodging their issues.

The United States draws damnation with everything it does…….

The US always receive criticism from inside and from outside; that is making the US the greatest country. I have a great admiration for that. But why is she exempt from this issue?

, I could also see how that could be very much to the advantage of Japan’s government.

That it could be advantage does not mean Japan is absolved, nor does it mean the US is absolved.

The headline implies that the US was engaged in the same activity of which Japan has been accused. An activity of which the US has not even been accused.

You felt fishy about it? Well many people felt fishy when Asahi run campaign against the government on this issue.
Comfort women was no secret for Japan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWdEpjuIDz4
The link is the film produced in 1959 when people didn’t accuse Japan yet of this issue. The comfort women in China was depicted just as prostitutes.
Later in 1980’s Japanese political group thought there were women exploited by Japanese troop, and visited Korea to find the comfort women. Ms Kim came forward, but she was a comfort woman but she was sold
by her father and she was a Kaesen. (she later changed her testimony) Asahi picked up the man called Yoshida, who testified she “hunted” women for women in Seju island. which was later denied by the people and historian by the island. It turned out he was liar. But the time was too late; that sensational movements didn’t stop. Kono issued an statement to handle the issue, with tacit agreement that Korea would end the issue if Japan somehow admitted the coercion.

what is clear is that abductions occurred with the approval of high-ranking officials…..

I don’t think you are talking based on the historical document. It is true that Japanese troop was involved
in setting up, regulating the brothels and transferring women, It was Japan’s policy that women be recruited on condition they are of their own will.
Japanese police regulated and arrested illegal brokers. That is why the brothel in Indonesia was closed. There is no fact abductions were widespread.
http://www.awf.or.jp/program/index.html
The link is a useful data base.
If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Now regardless of the fact that Japanese police regulated that there were cases where deceptions was involved by the brokers against Japan’s policy. As a result, women suffered. To that, Japanese PMs has apologized.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Abe made it clear from the time he took office he stood by Kono’s statement. Kono’s statement admits that in some case Japanese troop was directly involved in coercion;it did happen in Indonesia What Kono didn’t make clear was that such cases were against Japan’s policy and there was no systematic abductions. Because Kono didn’t make it clear, people like honda and some journalists mistakenly believe that Japan abducted women just as North Korea did.
Abe just clarified the issue.
Just because there were rapes in Vietnam by GIs, it does not follows they systematically kidnapped women for the brothels in Vietnam, in Korea, in Japan.
Just because women worked against their will in the brothels in a broad sense for GIs, it does not follow
that GIs systematically raped and coerced women in the brothels in Japan, in Korea, in Vietnam.
But when people mistakenly believe it, or some people want to have people believe it, I think the US politicians or anybody have right to correct the view.
When Japanese do it, s/he will be called a holocaust denier.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 2:56 am

Ken
Thanks.
what is better than setting up the fund and apologizing
to the victims who have never got remedy when people are insisting that Japan should apologize again to the comfort women for the comfort woman’s sake?
So after all is is all about diplomacy?

By the way, this is the second time I mailed to complaining that my comment didn’t appear, and even after mailing , in neither case my comment didn’t come up. I believe that is due to a technical reasons, could you check spam filter and mailing soft?

My comment was the comment on the comment 9662.
It was something like the following.

Why is apologizing viewed as punishment?

I don’t view apologizing as punishment.
The point is there is a limit on what a victim can ask for.

If apologizing is an agonizing act,,,,

Apologizing is not agonizing, the endless game is agonizing.

Perhaps one reason that there is a focus on Japan at the moment is that so many members of the Diet, especially high-ranking members, are the children or grandchildren of those who were in charge during the War. When Abe ran for the presidency of the LDP and, hence, the Prime Ministership, one of his favorite speeches was about his father’s dream of becoming Prime Minister. He entered the Diet when his father died by becoming his father’s successor.

I am in no way a fan of Abe, but he also said that Kishi was responsible for WWⅡ。
The power to end this lies in the hands of the voters of Japan, who, if they decide the issue is a priority, could decide not to vote for anyone whose father or grandfather was in power during the War.

Are you saying that they should not be elected?
I don’t like to see people elected just because they are entertainers, sons/daughters of famous politicians, but after all Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger might be a good governor despite his father.
And I don’t see the connection with this topic.

I really don’t understand how you can say that unfair attention is being focused on Japan while Germany is being given a free pass.

When the historians agree that German has the same, or worse system, but there is no apology or setting up
the fund for the former prostitutes, but the medial criticising Japan whose PMs apologized, in this regard, Germany is being given a free pass.

most of the Korean military dictatorship’s crimes were against its own people,

That does not mean they can forget, in particular when they are criticizing Japan for the crime of the same kind, saying that apology is not sincere while Korea has been dodging their issues.

The United States draws damnation with everything it does…….

The US always receive criticism from inside and from outside; that is making the US the greatest country. I have a great admiration for that. But why is she exempt from this issue?

, I could also see how that could be very much to the advantage of Japan’s government.

That it could be advantage does not mean Japan is absolved, nor does it mean the US is absolved.

The headline implies that the US was engaged in the same activity of which Japan has been accused. An activity of which the US has not even been accused.

You felt fishy about it? Well many people felt fishy when Asahi run campaign against the government on this issue.
Comfort women was no secret for Japan.
The link is the film produced in 1959 when people didn’t accuse Japan yet of this issue. The comfort women in China was depicted just as prostitutes.
Later in 1980’s Japanese political group thought there were women exploited by Japanese troop, and visited Korea to find the comfort women. Ms Kim came forward, but she was a comfort woman but she was sold
by her father and she was a Kaesen. (she later changed her testimony) Asahi picked up the man called Yoshida, who testified she “hunted” women for women in Seju island. which was later denied by the people and historian by the island. It turned out he was liar. But the time was too late; that sensational movements didn’t stop. Kono issued an statement to handle the issue, with tacit agreement that Korea would end the issue if Japan somehow admitted the coercion.

what is clear is that abductions occurred with the approval of high-ranking officials…..

I don’t think you are talking based on the historical document. It is true that Japanese troop was involved in setting up, regulating the brothels and transferring women, It was Japan’s policy that women be recruited on condition they are of their own will.
Japanese police regulated and arrested illegal brokers. That is why the brothel in Indonesia was closed. There is no fact abductions were widespread.

The link is a useful data base.
I might be wrong. If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Now regardless of the fact that Japanese police regulated that there were cases where deceptions was involved by the brokers against Japan’s policy. As a result, women suffered. To that, Japanese PMs has apologized.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Abe made it clear from the time he took office he stood by Kono’s statement. Kono’s statement admits that in some case Japanese troop was directly involved in coercion;it did happen in Indonesia What Kono didn’t make clear was that such cases were against Japan’s policy and there was no systematic abductions. Because Kono didn’t make it clear, people like honda and some journalists mistakenly believe that Japan abducted women just as North Korea did.
Abe just clarified the issue.
Just because there were rapes in Vietnam by GIs, it does not follows they systematically kidnapped women for the brothels in Vietnam, in Korea, in Japan.
Just because women worked against their will in the brothels in a broad sense for GIs, it does not follow
that GIs systematically raped and coerced women in the brothels in Japan, in Korea, in Vietnam.
But when people mistakenly believe it, or some people want to have people believe it, I think the US politicians or anybody have right to correct the view.
When Japanese do it, s/he will be called a holocaust denier.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 2:56 am

Ken
Thanks.
what is better than setting up the fund and apologizing
to the victims who have never got remedy when people are insisting that Japan should apologize again to the comfort women for the comfort woman’s sake?
So after all is is all about diplomacy?

By the way, this is the second time I mailed to complaining that my comment didn’t appear, and even after mailing , in neither case my comment didn’t come up. I believe that is due to a technical reasons, could you check spam filter and mailing soft?

My comment was the comment on the comment 9662.
It was something like the following.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 2:57 am

Why is apologizing viewed as punishment?

I don’t view apologizing as punishment.
The point is there is a limit on what a victim can ask for.

If apologizing is an agonizing act,,,,

Apologizing is not agonizing, the endless game is agonizing.

Perhaps one reason that there is a focus on Japan at the moment is that so many members of the Diet, especially high-ranking members, are the children or grandchildren of those who were in charge during the War. When Abe ran for the presidency of the LDP and, hence, the Prime Ministership, one of his favorite speeches was about his father’s dream of becoming Prime Minister. He entered the Diet when his father died by becoming his father’s successor.

I am in no way a fan of Abe, but he also said that Kishi was responsible for WWⅡ。
The power to end this lies in the hands of the voters of Japan, who, if they decide the issue is a priority, could decide not to vote for anyone whose father or grandfather was in power during the War.

Are you saying that they should not be elected?
I don’t like to see people elected just because they are entertainers, sons/daughters of famous politicians, but after all Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger might be a good governor despite his father.
And I don’t see the connection with this topic.

I really don’t understand how you can say that unfair attention is being focused on Japan while Germany is being given a free pass.

When the historians agree that German has the same, or worse system, but there is no apology or setting up
the fund for the former prostitutes, but the medial criticising Japan whose PMs apologized, in this regard, Germany is being given a free pass.

most of the Korean military dictatorship’s crimes were against its own people,

That does not mean they can forget, in particular when they are criticizing Japan for the crime of the same kind, saying that apology is not sincere while Korea has been dodging their issues.

The United States draws damnation with everything it does…….

The US always receive criticism from inside and from outside; that is making the US the greatest country. I have a great admiration for that. But why is she exempt from this issue?

, I could also see how that could be very much to the advantage of Japan’s government.

That it could be advantage does not mean Japan is absolved, nor does it mean the US is absolved.

The headline implies that the US was engaged in the same activity of which Japan has been accused. An activity of which the US has not even been accused.

You felt fishy about it? Well many people felt fishy when Asahi run campaign against the government on this issue.
Comfort women was no secret for Japan.
The link is the film produced in 1959 when people didn’t accuse Japan yet of this issue. The comfort women in China was depicted just as prostitutes.
Later in 1980’s Japanese political group thought there were women exploited by Japanese troop, and visited Korea to find the comfort women. Ms Kim came forward, but she was a comfort woman but she was sold
by her father and she was a Kaesen. (she later changed her testimony) Asahi picked up the man called Yoshida, who testified she “hunted” women for women in Seju island. which was later denied by the people and historian by the island. It turned out he was liar. But the time was too late; that sensational movements didn’t stop. Kono issued an statement to handle the issue, with tacit agreement that Korea would end the issue if Japan somehow admitted the coercion.

what is clear is that abductions occurred with the approval of high-ranking officials…..

I don’t think you are talking based on the historical document. It is true that Japanese troop was involved in setting up, regulating the brothels and transferring women, It was Japan’s policy that women be recruited on condition they are of their own will.
Japanese police regulated and arrested illegal brokers. That is why the brothel in Indonesia was closed. There is no fact abductions were widespread.

The link is a useful data base.
I might be wrong. If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Now regardless of the fact that Japanese police regulated that there were cases where deceptions was involved by the brokers against Japan’s policy. As a result, women suffered. To that, Japanese PMs has apologized.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Abe made it clear from the time he took office he stood by Kono’s statement. Kono’s statement admits that in some case Japanese troop was directly involved in coercion;it did happen in Indonesia What Kono didn’t make clear was that such cases were against Japan’s policy and there was no systematic abductions. Because Kono didn’t make it clear, people like honda and some journalists mistakenly believe that Japan abducted women just as North Korea did.
Abe just clarified the issue.
Just because there were rapes in Vietnam by GIs, it does not follows they systematically kidnapped women for the brothels in Vietnam, in Korea, in Japan.
Just because women worked against their will in the brothels in a broad sense for GIs, it does not follow
that GIs systematically raped and coerced women in the brothels in Japan, in Korea, in Vietnam.
But when people mistakenly believe it, or some people want to have people believe it, I think the US politicians or anybody have right to correct the view.
When Japanese do it, s/he will be called a holocaust denier.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 2:58 am

Why is apologizing viewed as punishment?

I don’t view apologizing as punishment.
The point is there is a limit on what a victim can ask for.

If apologizing is an agonizing act,,,,

Apologizing is not agonizing, the endless game is agonizing.

Perhaps one reason that there is a focus on Japan at the moment is that so many members of the Diet, especially high-ranking members, are the children or grandchildren of those who were in charge during the War. When Abe ran for the presidency of the LDP and, hence, the Prime Ministership, one of his favorite speeches was about his father’s dream of becoming Prime Minister. He entered the Diet when his father died by becoming his father’s successor.

I am in no way a fan of Abe, but he also said that Kishi was responsible for WWⅡ。
The power to end this lies in the hands of the voters of Japan, who, if they decide the issue is a priority, could decide not to vote for anyone whose father or grandfather was in power during the War.

Are you saying that they should not be elected?
I don’t like to see people elected just because they are entertainers, sons/daughters of famous politicians, but after all Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger might be a good governor despite his father.
And I don’t see the connection with this topic.

I really don’t understand how you can say that unfair attention is being focused on Japan while Germany is being given a free pass.

When the historians agree that German has the same, or worse system, but there is no apology or setting up the fund for the former prostitutes, but the medial criticising Japan whose PMs apologized, in this regard, Germany is being given a free pass.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 3:01 am

most of the Korean military dictatorship’s crimes were against its own people,

That does not mean they can forget it , in particular when they are criticizing Japan for the crime of the same kind, saying that apology is not sincere while Korea has been dodging their issues and especially when the more pressing issue is taking place in China involving Korean women being forced into the brothels..

The United States draws damnation with everything it does…….

The US always receive criticism from inside and from outside; that is making the US the greatest country. I have a great admiration for that. But why is she exempt from this issue?

, I could also see how that could be very much to the advantage of Japan’s government.

That it could be advantage does not mean Japan is absolved, nor does it mean the US is absolved.

The headline implies that the US was engaged in the same activity of which Japan has been accused. An activity of which the US has not even been accused.

You felt fishy about it? Well many people felt fishy when Asahi run campaign against the government on this issue.
Comfort women was no secret for Japan.
The link is the film produced in 1959 when people didn’t accuse Japan yet of this issue. The comfort women in China was depicted just as prostitutes.
Later in 1980’s Japanese political group thought there were women exploited by Japanese troop, and visited Korea to find the comfort women. Ms Kim came forward, but she was a comfort woman but she was sold
by her father and she was a Kaesen. (she later changed her testimony) Asahi picked up the man called Yoshida, who testified she “hunted” women for women in Seju island. which was later denied by the people and historian by the island. It turned out he was liar. But the time was too late; that sensational movements didn’t stop. Kono issued an statement to handle the issue, with tacit agreement that Korea would end the issue if Japan somehow admitted the coercion.

what is clear is that abductions occurred with the approval of high-ranking officials…..

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 3:04 am

I don’t think you are talking based on the historical document. It is true that Japanese troop was involved in setting up, regulating the brothels and transferring women, but at the same time , it was Japan’s policy that women be recruited on condition they are of their own will.
Japanese police regulated and arrested illegal brokers. That is why the brothel in Indonesia was closed. There is no fact abductions were widespread.

The link is a useful data base.
I might be wrong. If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Now regardless of the fact that Japanese police regulated illegal brokers, there were cases where deceptions was involved by the brokers against Japan’s policy. As a result, women suffered. To that, Japanese PMs has apologized.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Abe made it clear from the time he took office he stood by Kono’s statement. Kono’s statement admits that in some case Japanese troop was directly involved in coercion;it did happen in Indonesia What Kono didn’t make clear was that such cases were against Japan’s policy and there was no systematic abductions. Because Kono didn’t make it clear, people like honda and some journalists mistakenly believe that Japan abducted women just as North Korea did.
Abe just clarified the issue.
Just because there were rapes in Vietnam by GIs, it does not follows they systematically kidnapped women for the brothels in Vietnam, in Korea, in Japan.
Just because women worked against their will in the brothels in a broad sense for GIs, it does not follow
that GIs systematically raped and coerced women in the brothels in Japan, in Korea, in Vietnam.
But when people mistakenly believe it, or some people want to have people believe it, I think the US politicians or anybody have right to correct the view.
When Japanese do it, s/he will be called a holocaust denier.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 3:06 am

I don’t think you are talking based on the historical document. It is true that Japanese troop was involved in setting up, regulating the brothels and transferring women, It was Japan’s policy that women be recruited on condition they are of their own will.
Japanese police regulated and arrested illegal brokers. That is why the brothel in Indonesia was closed. There is no fact abductions were widespread.

The link is a useful data base.
I might be wrong. If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Now regardless of the fact that Japanese police regulated illegal brokers, there were cases where deceptions was involved by the brokers against Japan’s policy. As a result, women suffered. To that, Japanese PMs has apologized.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Abe made it clear from the time he took office he stood by Kono’s statement. Kono’s statement admits that in some case Japanese troop was directly involved in coercion;it did happen in Indonesia What Kono didn’t make clear was that such cases were against Japan’s policy and there was no systematic abductions. Because Kono didn’t make it clear, people like honda and some journalists mistakenly believe that Japan abducted women just as North Korea did.
Abe just clarified the issue.
Just because there were rapes in Vietnam by GIs, it does not follows they systematically kidnapped women for the brothels in Vietnam, in Korea, in Japan.
Just because women worked against their will in the brothels in a broad sense for GIs, it does not follow
that GIs systematically raped and coerced women in the brothels in Japan, in Korea, in Vietnam.
But when people mistakenly believe it, or some people want to have people believe it, I think the US politicians or anybody have right to correct the view.
When Japanese do it, s/he will be called a holocaust denier.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 3:06 am

I don’t think you are talking based on the historical document. It is true that Japanese troop was involved in setting up, regulating the brothels and transferring women, It was Japan’s policy that women be recruited on condition they are of their own will.
Japanese police regulated and arrested illegal brokers. That is why the brothel in Indonesia was closed. There is no fact abductions were widespread.

The link is a useful data base.
I might be wrong. If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Now regardless of the fact that Japanese police regulated illegal brokers, there were cases where deceptions was involved by the brokers against Japan’s policy. As a result, women suffered. To that, Japanese PMs has apologized.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 3:07 am

I don’t think you are talking based on the historical document. It is true that Japanese troop was involved in setting up, regulating the brothels and transferring women, It was Japan’s policy that women be recruited on condition they are of their own will.
Japanese police regulated and arrested illegal brokers. That is why the brothel in Indonesia was closed. There is no fact abductions were widespread.

The link is a useful data base.
I might be wrong. If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 3:08 am

I don’t think you are talking based on the historical document. It is true that Japanese troop was involved in setting up, regulating the brothels and transferring women, It was Japan’s policy that women be recruited on condition they are of their own will.
Japanese police regulated and arrested illegal brokers. That is why the brothel in Indonesia was closed. There is no fact abductions were widespread.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 3:08 am

The link is a useful data base.
I might be wrong. If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Now regardless of the fact that Japanese police regulated that there were cases where deceptions was involved by the brokers against Japan’s policy. As a result, women suffered. To that, Japanese PMs has apologized.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Abe made it clear from the time he took office he stood by Kono’s statement. Kono’s statement admits that in some case Japanese troop was directly involved in coercion;it did happen in Indonesia What Kono didn’t make clear was that such cases were against Japan’s policy and there was no systematic abductions. Because Kono didn’t make it clear, people like honda and some journalists mistakenly believe that Japan abducted women just as North Korea did.
Abe just clarified the issue.
Just because there were rapes in Vietnam by GIs, it does not follows they systematically kidnapped women for the brothels in Vietnam, in Korea, in Japan.
Just because women worked against their will in the brothels in a broad sense for GIs, it does not follow
that GIs systematically raped and coerced women in the brothels in Japan, in Korea, in Vietnam.
But when people mistakenly believe it, or some people want to have people believe it, I think the US politicians or anybody have right to correct the view.
When Japanese do it, s/he will be called a holocaust denier

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 3:09 am

I might be wrong. If you have documents to back up your arguments, I would like to see them.

Now regardless of the fact that Japanese police regulated that there were cases where deceptions was involved by the brokers against Japan’s policy. As a result, women suffered. To that, Japanese PMs has apologized.

If Japanese politicians and/or conservatives want to set the record straight, there are better ways to do so than denying that this never happened based on the technicality of an erroneous understanding on the part of the victims of their captors’ bureaucratic systems and the nuances of those systems’ policies.

Abe made it clear from the time he took office he stood by Kono’s statement. Kono’s statement admits that in some case Japanese troop was directly involved in coercion;it did happen in Indonesia What Kono didn’t make clear was that such cases were against Japan’s policy and there was no systematic abductions. Because Kono didn’t make it clear, people like honda and some journalists mistakenly believe that Japan abducted women just as North Korea did.
Abe just clarified the issue.
Just because there were rapes in Vietnam by GIs, it does not follows they systematically kidnapped women for the brothels in Vietnam, in Korea, in Japan.
Just because women worked against their will in the brothels in a broad sense for GIs, it does not follow
that GIs systematically raped and coerced women in the brothels in Japan, in Korea, in Vietnam.
But when people mistakenly believe it, or some people want to have people believe it, I think the US politicians or anybody have right to correct the view.
When Japanese do it, s/he will be called a holocaust denier.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 4:32 am

I am sorry about the mess:they didn’t come at first Plese delete my comments after 97297, including this comment. Thanks

Comment by ken

May 11, 2007 @ 11:19 am

Ponta,

what is better than setting up the fund and apologizing to the victims who have never got remedy when people are insisting that Japan should apologize again to the comfort women for the comfort woman’s sake?

The fund was very carefully set up to be a ‘private’ fund in order to purposefully not give the appearance that the money was coming from the Japanese government itself. Yet the government provided over half of the money for that fund. That causes some people to question the sincerity of the fund’s having been set up in the first place.

Again, you say the government has apologized. But many people disagree. How could you convince them that the government of Japan has issued a clear, non-hedged apology? Nothing has been approved by the Diet. Politicians have continually said things domestically that leads other countries to believe that words of apology are mere empty gestures.

There was talk of ‘revising’ the Kono statement by current Diet members after Abe assumed post of Prime Minister. Nothing from Abe himself, but under his watch. Some people take that as a sign.

Those are the people you need to convince with what you say, certainly not me. I’m here to let you know that if you’re not convincing me (and you’re not), then these arguments don’t stand much of a chance with governments.

So after all is is all about diplomacy?

All about? No. But international relations involves diplomacy, as I’m sure you know. This article is about Japan’s international relations and diplomacy. What other angle would I be taking in comments concerning such a topic?

Comment by ken

May 11, 2007 @ 11:21 am

Ponta, About the comments: I found 5 or 6 that appeared to be caught in the spam filter. Thanks for letting us know. We maybe get to check it once a week or so, so sometimes stuff is in there for a bit.

Comment by DeOrio

May 11, 2007 @ 5:38 pm

Ponta, back to 97068:

Were you saying Japan should apologize to the US?

No.

I thought you were saying Japan should apologize, based on a vote in the diet, to the former comfort women exploited by Japanese troop.

I was.

I am saying your argument would be more convincing if you insisted the US, Korea, German, as well as Japan should apologize to the prostitutes exploited by their troops based on a vote in the assembly.

As I said before, they are separate issues. When a man is found guilty of murder, there is no insistence on the solving of every other murder before he is sentenced.
I said before that I absolutely do think any and every government that has been involved in human rights abuses should apologize.
I didn’t call for German, Korean, or American apologies because the editorial was about Japan. I didn’t talk about German, Korean, or American abuses at all. This particular problem facing Japan and a crime of which the government of Japan has been accused. What other countries have or have not is irrelevant.

If I were to write an editorial calling for a US withdrawal from Iraq, would I have to insist on a concurrent Ethiopian withdrawal from Somalia in order to strenghten the argument?
If I were to write an article calling for the release of still-classified KGB documents, would it be weak because I didn’t make a call for a similar release of kempeitai documents?

Why not suggest that I include a call for a Ugandan apology or an Ivorian apology as well?

I think including a call for anyting from any other country would only serve as yet another red herring. Yes, other countries have committed sex crimes in wartime, but the issue here in what Japan did in WWII.

They’re separate issues. Similar, to be sure, but separate. I’m not giving any country a free pass, I’m just focusing on a single issue that can be considered on its own.

Comment by ponta

May 11, 2007 @ 9:39 pm

ken
Thanks

So after all is is all about diplomacy?

All about? No. But international relations involves diplomacy, as I’m sure you know

So this is not all about diplomacy.
And people are calling on Japan to apologize more for the benefit of comfort women, And yet they fail to see the connection…..and yet they fail to give remedy to the “prostitutes” exploited by military by German, the US, and Korea who haven’t received any apology and help?—-though Korean comfort women somehow have remedy already.
That is the point I fail to understand.

As for the sincerity, I find it very difficult to convince people where the principle of charity does not work, where people have little intention to accept any apology (But note Australian woman accepted Abe’s apology ) where people are determined to ignore faults of their own countries while determined to nitpick several apologies from the head of the state.
In other words, it is difficult to convince people where biased political force is demanding double bind
diplomacy.

(Thank you for the handling of the comments)

DeOrio
Thanks

When a man is found guilty of murder, there is no insistence on the solving of every other murder before he is sentenced.

I am afraid the analogy fails. It is more like the situation in which people are pointing finger at the man who has already served his sentence while turning a blind eye on the men who have not even tried despite their crimes because the men are their relatives.

I didn’t call for German, Korean, or American apologies because the editorial was about Japan. I didn’t talk about German, Korean, or American abuses at all.

You talked about the article mentioning GI frequenting comfort station.
That was a big chance to talk about the real issue—exploitation of prostitutes by military, but for some reason, you have dodged the question saying it is red herring to take it up. This is where an biased force, biased misdirection came in.

I have argued that Japan’s case per se has become rather a political show fueled by Korean anti-Japan policy and some ethnocentristic Koreans and that it is important to see through it.

And as regards Japan’s case, I have argued there is a limit the victims can ask for.

We can agree to disagree on this point.

I’m not giving any country a free pass,

I really hope so. I really hope you investigate the case of Korea, the US and Germany and keep accusing them until they issue apology based on a vote in the assembly and set up the fund all by the government to show sincerity. I am sure you’ll spend at least as much time as you spent on Japan’s case.
Those victims hasn’t received the remedy yet.

Comment by ken

May 11, 2007 @ 11:56 pm

Ponta:

What do you think of this one?

New records show women coerced into prostitution in wartime Indonesia

Comment by ponta

May 12, 2007 @ 2:53 am

Ken
thanks

What do you think of this one?

I think the report make it as if it was a big news when in fact it is not.
Kajimura is talking about Aochi, who run the brothels.
http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/News/Sp200704110327.html
And Aochi was tried and sentenced ten years prison.

Washio Awochi was tried by the Netherlands Temporary Court-Martial at Batavia for forcing Dutch women into prostitution during the Japanese occupation of Batavia. After the Japanese occupied the Dutch East Indies, Awochi began operating the Sakura Club, which consisted of a restaurant, bar and brothel, all of which was exclusively reserved for Japanese civilians. Awochi initially recruited women to be staff at the restaurant or bar without revealing his brothel operation. Then, once they were hired, he gave them a choice: work as a prostitute in his brothel or be turned over to the Japanese police for imprisonment, deportation or beatings.

Awochi argued that his mistress, Lies Beerhorst, actually ran the brothel and issued the threats that forced these women into prostitution. The court-martial found that Awochi’s financial interest and profits were too great, and his relationship with Beerhorst too close, for him to be unaware of the compelled nature of the prostitution. Despite Awochi’s additional argument that he was compelled to conduct this business at the order of the Japanese government, the court-martial found Awochi guilty of the war crime of “enforced prostitution” and sentenced him to ten years’ imprisonment. (258) Awochi is another example of a business person, like many of the industrialists in Germany, who took illegal advantage of military occupation to make a greater profit and thus committed a crime

And military officials who acted against Japanese policy were also punished.
http://www.iza.ne.jp/news/newsarticle/world/america/42614/

And the article is also inaccurate in that Abe denied
such cases happened. Abe made it clear that he has stood by Kono’s statement which admits that in some cases Japanese troop was directly involved in the coercion.

As I said before, what the statement didn’t
make it clear was that they acted against the policy just as GIs who raped women acted against the regulation and there was no systematic kidnapping just as there was no systematic kidnapping in Korea though there are cases in which women were raped and made prostitutes for GI
http://www.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=67635

According to Yoshimi, the government and military played a major role in operating the brothels. Although private agents were commissioned to round up the women, the military brought the women to frontline brothels and controlled their operations, he said.

But Hata claimed the agents took the initiative because it was their business. The military only played a secondary role, he said, offering facilities for brothels. He also emphasized the business side of it, saying the women had contracts with the agents, not the military

(Japan times March 20)
Yoshimi is a historian and a leader who criticize Japanese government severely on this issue. But note that both historians agree that it was private brokers who recruited women.
And I noted before, Japanese police regulated illegal brokers. women.
http://www.awf.or.jp/program/pdf/p107_141.pdf
There was a policy that women be recruited of their own will but they went against it and so the brothels
were closed.
Note also that And there are some Korean professors who also claims that there is no evidence to show the abduction by military took place in the peninsula.

Here is a detailed article of Indonesian comfort

As a side note,

Did other military forces have a similar system?

According to both Hata and Yoshimi, Nazi Germany had frontline brothels during the war, using women, even by force, in Eastern Europe.

Reading the article you posted, I felt the journalism
does not care about the accuracy when it is “the in thing” .
Actually Asahi started it.
For that matter, it is a good idea Transpacific radio start campaigning for exploited women by GI in Vietnam, Korea, Japan who haven’t received remedy unlike Korean former comfort women exploited by Japanese troop as much energy as you spent on Japan’s case.
But if it were to happen, I wish you investigated and reported more accurately and fairly than some of the media in Japan, in Korea, in the U.S.

Comment by ponta

May 12, 2007 @ 11:55 am

I posted a comment.
Please check the spam filter.

Comment by B

May 13, 2007 @ 2:15 pm

Ponta, I’ve never seen someone work so hard to justify the systematic enslavement and rape of thousands of women across Asia. You must be truly proud of what Japan did during the war. It’s very sad to see, I hope you’ll get better someday and be able to have some respect for not only these women, but humanity in general.

Comment by ponta

May 14, 2007 @ 12:32 am

B

Ponta, I’ve never seen someone work so hard to justify the systematic enslavement

You have missed the whole point
I am not justifying the comfort station. Japan is not justifying the comfort station.
It is Korea that misrepresents Japan that way for the sake of keep hating Japan, for the sake of justifying Korean comfort women exploited by Korea.

Japan acknowledged it was wrong, and apologized for it and set up the fund.

Korea has had same system during Korean war, the similar system around A town.

But they show no sympathy for their
Korean women, .It is really disgusting.

Comment by DeOrio

May 14, 2007 @ 12:56 pm

Ponta, is any comment of yours not showing up? I took a look through the spam filters, but might have missed something in the mess of spam that’s in there

Comment by ponta

May 14, 2007 @ 4:18 pm

DeOrio
The comment 98360 is the comment I mentioned in the comment 98888.
Thank you.

Comment by goku

May 15, 2007 @ 10:12 am

Ponta,

I fail to see how “Korea…misrepresents Japan…”, has anything to do with non-Koreans. Are you suggesting that somehow Korea has duped the world into siding with them, that perhaps non-koreans are unable to go beyond political rhetoric and find out for themselves whether or not Japan has adequately atoned for their crimes? Are you also suggesting that Mike Honda, and a host of other politicians who have brought forth similar resolutions in the past decade, have been somehow compromised by “Korean(-American) ultra-nationalism”?

For me your argument does nothing to advance your position. Sadly it was an unfortunate display of dodging the main issue at hand while trying to minimize and/or divert Japan’s culpability. You have failed to convince me, and ironically, you have displayed the very same tendencies this article is trying to prove – “red herring”.

Comment by ponta

May 15, 2007 @ 10:54 pm

goku
Thanks.

or me your argument does nothing to advance your position.

My position is quite simple: people should approach this issue in view of military exploitation of women and let it not be prey to nationalism.

Japan was wrong about providing infrastructure for comfort station.
Japan acknowledged it and apologized many times for it.
Korea was wrong about providing infrastructure for comfort station after the liberation, and yet Korea has never acknowledge it nor has she apologized to women for it.

You can argue Japanese apology is not sincere enough, sufficient enough or whatever.
But you are morally inconsistent and it is red herring to just focus on Japan who apologized anyway if you turn a blind eyes to the countries who have not face their wrongs of the same kind.

So what do you think of Korean comfort women after the liberation? Do you know it? Have you heard about it? If you don’t know it, I’ll provide the source:, the tragedy of Korean prostitutes before during after Japanese rule: they have been exploited and despised by Korean society
So do you think Korea should apologize to the women?

Comment by Pellegrini

May 16, 2007 @ 1:25 am

Ponta,

Of course the Korean government needs to set some things straight. They need to apologize.

If you would like to write a blog entry about that topic (or if you already have), please direct our attention to it. I’m sure you will get lots of visitors who agree that any person (of any nationality) who is forced into sexual slavery by any government deserves a full and complete apology (with no statements, simultaneous or subsequent, made by politicians to weaken or cast doubt on the sincerity of it) from said government.

Your assertion that Korea uses this issue as a red herring is duly noted.

However, the author of this essay is not Korean, and it was not his intention to flaunt the faults of the Japanese government in such a way that it might draw attention away from crimes committed by, or with the approval of, another nation’s government.

This piece most likely originated from a desire to analyze an issue that is holding Japan back–and not just in the eyes of Korea and China.

From the author’s analysis came a proposal for a way forward with regard to the sexual enslavement issue, and that proposal is of value because most of what Japan has tried has not worked.

Everything suggested by the author (from good faith gestures to repeated and unambiguous apologies emanating from several corners of the government) was written from within the context of a) how Japan has dealt with its past in particular, and b) how it conducts business in general. Including an analysis of another country’s reluctance to fully atone for its crimes, and how that may fit into a larger national affection for red herring, is not within the scope of this essay.

In short, whether or not Korea (or any other nation that has sexually enslaved a human being) also chooses to embrace the recommendations outlined above is secondary.

Again, I agree that Korea should apologize to the women, so long as it’s similar to what is proposed in the article above.

Isn’t it possible that it would be in Japan’s best (long-term) interests to do the same?

Comment by ken

May 16, 2007 @ 3:25 am

Pellegrini, I’m very much in agreement with you, and have been expressing a similar take: Japan needs to try a new approach.

There are many, many people across the globe who say that Japan has not apologized, and they point to the fact that the Diet has never ratified an apology. This is compelling evidence.

With that in mind, what is stopping Japan from doing what would be in its best long-term interests, i.e. taking the issue away from those who continue to use it as a political tool?

The rub is that it has to be sincere, and that is another problem Japan faces. To the outside world, its ‘apologies’ seem insincere when politicians and current Diet members have called for a ‘review’ of the Kono Statement. Again, this is perception and PR to some degree. Japan has said one thing internationally, but is often inconsistent with its message domestically. The rest of the world is not so dumb that they can’t figure that out.

I agree, what Korea does or chooses not do to will reflect well or badly on Korea. It has nothing to do with the thrust of this piece.

I am looking for a Japan to take a stronger role internationally and in order to do that the air must be cleared. Are Japan’s leaders up to the task?

Comment by ponta

May 16, 2007 @ 9:39 am

I might add, “sincerity” is very ambiguous concept, you can forever doubt some-body’s sincerity. For instance, what if somebody start doubting Transpacific radio’s sincerity and integrity unless it starts and keeps posting about the women exploited by the US military until the US congress issue apology?
Suppose you post three or four articles about it.Still s/he can keep nitpicking your article, saying that was not article sincerely written, or something like that.

Comment by ken

May 16, 2007 @ 9:51 am

Ponta, that comment makes no sense to me whatsoever. You’re still pretty far off from what this conversation is even about. This article is about Japan, not any other country.

For instance, what if somebody start doubting Transpacific radio’s sincerity and integrity unless it starts and keeps posting about the women exploited by the US military until the US congress issue apology?

Who cares?

Seriously, I’m not sure what you’re getting at. What does the US have to do with anything? I’m not sure what kind of assumptions you’re making, but this is a website in Japan, about Japan done by people in Japan. There is no connection between this website and the US.

Not to mention, the comparison just makes no sense. This is a website. This is not a government that was involved in the conflict in question. I’m hoping you see that difference.

Unfortunately, I have to say it’s very difficult to take a comment like that last one seriously. As the argument becomes more and more lost, the comments I’m seeing are more and more desperate, stranger, and make less sense. They’re becoming less and less convincing, and only serve to hurt your viewpoint.

This is about Japan, and not any other country.

Comment by ponta

May 16, 2007 @ 3:46 pm

Ken
Your comment does not make sense to me whatever.
This article is about Japan’s red-herring, isn’t it?
Some people argued that AP article and the comments about it is red-herring.
AP article is about the US requesting the comfort station to set up, and GI using it.
My argument is that we should work together if you want to talk about humanity and helping the victim.
I want the US, Korea and international community to play fair.
I am afraid you keep evading the real issue
I am afraid some people are trying desparately to evade the issue by calling the topic of the US’s and Korean military involvement with comfort station red-herring.
.

Who cares?

So you don’t care about your integretiy and sincerity?and yet keep talking about Japan’s sincerity?
In a way that is consistent if you don’t care about integrity.

Onishi of NYT is losing credibility for one thing, because it is obvious that when he writs about Japan, he bashes Japan without checking the facts while turning a blind eye on Korea, and when he writes about Korea, he just praise it. Few people quote him to back up their argument.

What does the US have to do with anything?

Reread the article.

Recent articles about US participation in prostitution haven’t shed a lot of new light on the subject,

Why can not the US face the fact while pointing finger at Japan?

This is about Japan, and not any other country.

This is about Japan’s alledged red-herring.

Don’t lose patience, Ken. I understand you guys are writing for the sake of Japan. I am also thinking hard to get Japan out of this silly game.
One way to do that is to present the fact as accurately as possible( people who comment on this issue rarely know the issue); another way is to put people in Japan’s shoes.
For some reason you look desparate trying to escape from the issue the US is facing.

BTW, Ken, I think the US is playing a big role in the international community not because of its moral integrity but because of its military strength and because of that, she can go on without the air not being cleared.

Comment by ken

May 16, 2007 @ 3:58 pm

Ponta, again, you are totally missing the point of the article and the discussion here. I’m stating to think that you’re joking around.

You asked: what if somebody start doubting Transpacific radio’s sincerity and integrity unless it starts and keeps posting about the women exploited by the US military until the US congress issue apology?

I said “Who cares?” because it would be absolutely insane of someone to take such a standpoint to begin with, and no one here would pay it any attention.

But a huge thing is this: I am talking about the perception of Japan. I agree that all parties who have done something wrong should apologize.

But guess what? My opinion and sense of personal values mean nothing. In the eyes of diplomacy and international relations and government policymakers, none of the opinions of anyone who posts on this website are read, considered nor carry any weight. You know that, right? We’re talking about global politics and Japan’s role within. We are not talking about what is morally right or wrong.

We are discussing realpolitik and what is best for Japan. We are discussing Japan, not the actions of any other nation. You’re going to have to accept that if you want to play a constructive part of this discussion on what Japan should do in terms of foreign policy.

Comment by ponta

May 16, 2007 @ 7:48 pm

BTW
I said on another blog what Japan should do is to declare to help women victimized by military of whatever countries, thereby let people know what Japan did, and what Japan didn’t during the war and what Japan did to help them and let people know the situation of women victimized by Korea military, the US military etc. in the similar way Japan victimized them.
I don’t think that is red herring at all.
I think that will facilitate understanding the real issue and that should be Japanese foreign policy.
But it seems that will bring a lot of attacks, saying that it is red-herring, holocaust denying etc.

(My two comments are missing, please check the spam filter, thank you.)

Comment by DeOrio

May 16, 2007 @ 10:27 pm

Ponta, I think there are now two sides talking past each other here.

- No one in this thread has said that the US, Korea, or any other nation is guilt-free.

- I’ve tried repeatedly to explain why what other countries have done or not done is not necessarily germane when discussing Japan and why it is valid to discuss Japan and only Japan.

- Again, the US is not pointing a finger. I and others have explained this at least three or four times now. Saying that the US is pointing a finger at Japan to distract attention from its own misdeeds or doing so when it is refusing to acknowledge its own actions is simply factually incorrect. For starters, I would remind you that Mike Honda, the same Representative who brought the resolution demanding an apology from Japan, ordered a Congressional inquiry into American involvement in sex slavery in the Far East.

Under US law, if you, as an individual, feel the US government is doing so, you could form a victims’ group and sue the US government in US courts for human rights violations committed by anyone against anyone anywhere in the world. You could also petition a member of the House of Representatives to propose a resolution to the House, as Mike Honda has done.

- As I said before, there are scores of unresolved atrocities I did not mention in the article. That is because I wrote an editorial about an issue facing Japan on a site and for a podcast about Japan. The only time the US or any other country is ever mentioned, good or bad, is when it is in the context of an issue related to Japan.

I’ll try one more time:
Imagine you and I are both driving and both speeding like mad. Hell, we’re racing. You, being a better driver with a faster car, beat me and I get pulled over by the police. In my own defense, I point out to the officer that you were also speeding, driving even faster than me, in fact.

Why would I do that?

The intent is obviously to try to convince the officer that he should go after more serious speeders or that I should not be punished for speeding when other speeders are going free.

This is a red herring. The question is whether or not I am speeding, not who else was speeding or who was driving fastest.

The question here, as I said above and in the original editorial, is whether or not the government of Japan bears any responsibility for what happened during the War. On that point, we all seem to agree. Given that, the question is what Japan should do about it. What other countries do or don’t do is absolutely irrelevant.
____________

As for TPR’s sincerity, it’s irrelevant. Sincerity is important for an apology, not for the reporting, analysis, or commenting upon of information. Honesty and good faith are important, but it really doesn’t matter if I am sincerely worried about the “comfort women” or not.

I’m really not sure what your point was there, I’m guessing it was just a botched analogy.

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 3:12 am

I would remind you that Mike Honda, the same Representative who brought the resolution demanding an apology from Japan, ordered a Congressional inquiry into American involvement in sex slavery in the Far East.

So ?
Honda does not even read the congressional
research on comfort women; The congressional research does admit that there are cases where women are forced by military but it does not say Japan as a policy was systematically abducting, but Honda implied it; he is not neutral and nor fair at all and you know it. I wonder why you brought up Honda as if he represented the conscience of the US.
And don’t get me wrong. I am not accusing American government nor American people. My
highest respect goes to them.
I am accusing people who keep accusing Japan without checking the fact on the issue, without reflecting what their own countries have been doing.

Under US law, if you, as an individual, feel the US government is doing so, you could form a victims’ group and sue the US government in US courts for human rights violations committed by anyone against anyone anywhere in the world

The same holds in Japan.
But keep in mind that this movement was not initiated by victims, but it is initiated by Japanese political group and media. In the beginning there were no vicims voicing against the government. The people of a specific political group who was against the government anyway bothered to visit Korea to look for vicims.

As I said before, there are scores of unresolved atrocities I did not mention in the article. That is because I wrote an editorial about an issue facing Japan on a site and for a podcast about Japan. The only time the US or any other country is ever mentioned, good or bad, is when it is in the context of an issue related to Japan.

And you say for Japan to mention the US atrocity is red herring, and I say it is not.

I’ll try one more time:
Imagine you and I are both driving and both speeding like mad. Hell, we’re racing. You, being a better driver with a faster car, beat me and I get pulled over by the police. In my own defense, I point out to the officer that you were also speeding, driving even faster than me, in fact.

Why would I do that?

Again your analogy fails.
The better analogy is that you are an black American and I am a white American and you served your sentence for the crime, but I got a free pass. And, the officer and society keep demanding you issue more apology or you serve another years. When you point out the same crime by me, you are bashed, called a holocaust denier, told it is red-herring.

I don’t know why you keep ignoring PM’s apologies. Is it just coincidence that the post I listed four apologies by Kato, Kono, (secretary of cabinet) Murayama, Hashimoto didn’t appear despite the fact I asked to check the spam filter?

the question is what Japan should do about it. What other countries do or don’t do is absolutely irrelevant.

Now you have changed the subject. The question was whether it was red-herring to point out the crime by the US.
But okay, We agreed that Japan is responsible for the system. And the question is what Japan should do.
I have argued that since keep apologizing and accepting whatever the people who have bias and political agenda has turned out to be fruitless, we should change the strategy. The more constructive approach is
to declare to help female vicims by whatever country’s military, thereby clearing up, for instance, what the US military, and Korean military did, and by doing so, we should make American people and Korean people involved and think critically about themselves, what they are doing.

Sincerity is important for an apology, not for the reporting, analysis, or commenting upon of information

Sincerity is important even in reporting.
If you are not sincere in reporting, that mean you are joking. In the theory of speech act, sincerity is the condition to examine whether you mean what you say.
But that is not the point. The point is you can forever keep nitpicking Japan’s apology and TPR, using the ambiguous criteria such as sincerity and integrity.

BTW so do you admit that the US should issue apology and set up funds for the female vicims exploited by the US troop in Vietnam and Korea?

.

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 3:13 am

I posted a comment.
Three comments are missing in total.
Please check the spam filter.

Comment by ken

May 17, 2007 @ 3:24 am

Ponta, there was one in the spam filter. Could you post your comments again, please?

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 4:49 am

And let me ask you.
Many American bloggers(Marmot, Coming Anarchy, Anpontan , Rok drops) criticized Honda for his action for the reslutions.
But TPY thinks Honda’s movement is right. Am I correct?

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 5:27 am

Ponta, there was one in the spam filter. Could you post your comments again, please?

I didn’t keep my comments since I confirmed you guys would check the spam filter.

Could you check it again?

As far as I remember,

(1) I posted the apologies by Kato Kono, Murayama, Hashimoto, Koizumi, which to me by any standard count as apologies. and they are ignored by most English journalists and blogger, and the readers.(

(2) I understand you guys are doing for the sake of Japan but I argued that Japan’s foreign policy of apologizing failed in the context where the facts were not relayed correctly, and biased force on this issue is working on (many people don’t bother to check the facts while ,when Korean and the US cases are pointed out , in many cases they are just apathetic) and there is no agreed criteria to end the issue. So what Japan should do is to assert aggressively to help the former prostitutes exploited by military of whatever countries, thereby making clear what the US, and Korean troop did, giving a time for those who keep accusing Japan to reflect on what they are doing and what the real issue is. This should be Japanese foreign policy and it is not red-herring at all.

(3)In veiw of remedy, the former comfort women under Japanese rule have had remedy from Korean or Japanese governement.
In vew of real politics, this issue means little, because real politics mainly goes around the military
strengh.
In veiow of soft power, there is little Japan can do on this issue as long as Japan keep apologizing just as before.
An Australian woman who testified at the US congress said she was stasified and another woman was demanding PM’s apology.
Still Honda is pushing for the resolution because he is doing for his consituents.

(4)Maybe I rebutted against some points Ken raised

Comment by DeOrio

May 17, 2007 @ 10:17 am

I think what Honda is doing is good only insofar as it brings attention to the issue. I have not in any way implied that he is the conscience of anyone other than the group consisting of himself and his constituents. Likewise, I think that groups that put pressure on the US government for crimes the US or its representatives have committed are doing good work.

To answer your question, yes, I absolutely think the US should apologize for and compensate victims of its policies, including any women recruited into brothel work at the request or with the knowledge of US authorities. This includes activities in Japan. If GHQ condoned or, even worse, requested the recruitment of women to work in brothels, the US absolutely owes them an apology in the sincerest terms - from the President himself and from the Speaker of the House (the highest-ranking legislator) - and owes them money, to say the least. I have said this repeatedly and explicitly in this thread.

However, I have also explained why Japan’s apologies have been insincere. The trouble is not in the tone of voice of the person delivering the comments, but that no apology has ever been ratified by the Diet. Every apology has been almost immediately contradicted by high-ranking members of the Diet. There has been no effort on the part of the Diet or any governmental agency to promulgate such apologies within Japan. In the case of the current PM, he spent years - most of his career in the Diet - working very hard and publicly for the retraction of apologies and admissions of guilt. He has uttered no unqualified statement of regret and has said many things, in public, that contradict his apologies. “I’m sorry, but. . .” doesn’t count.

The Diet seems to think that they can say one thing within Japan and another thing for foreign consumption and that it is somehow unfair if their foreign audience finds out what they said for domestic consumption. This doesn’t fly. That is what I mean by insincerity. It is not a subjective judgement.

As for this idea you keep bringing up that the US has never apologized for crimes it has committed or is somehow picking on Japan while ignoring its own wrongdoing, I would point out the officially ratified, unambiguous, unretracted apologies and acceptances of guilt the US issued for the internement of Japanese-Americans during WWII, for the forced migration of the Cherokee and Creek tribes, among some others, in the mid-19th century (better known as the “Trail of Tears”), for illegal and unethical medical research done on Black airmen during WWII, for an unofficial policy of turning away Jewish immigrants in the lead up to American involvement in WWII in Europe, for a massacre perpetrated by American troops in the Philippines in the 1890s, for the government’s encouragement of buffalo hunting as a method of population control against Plains Indians, and on and on.

The US government makes denials, to be sure, but it does not behoove Japan to compare itself with the US in that regard.

To use your analogy, yes, it would be a red herring if I brought up your guilt to deflect calls for further apologies. That would be a textbook example of a red herring. If I, as the Black man, were representing Japan in this analogy, though, I would not have gone to prison. I’d have been given a suspended sentence, violated my probation, and been given yet another suspended sentence for it.

If I say, “Japan needs to issue an official apology,” and you respond by bringing up American crimes, that’s a red herring because American crimes are not the issue.

If, though, you bring up American crimes on their own, instead of as a defense, that is not a red herring. That is perfectly valid.

The reason neither Ken nor I nor any of our contributors have brought up American crimes is quite simply that we don’t cover American politics, US history, or US news unless it directly relates to Japan. We give no greater preference to the US than to any other country. Newspapers in Miami have little to say about Ichiro or Matsuzaka not because they deny the accomplishments of either player or think either player is worse than the hometown guys, but because neither one plays for the Marlins.

If Japan aggressively pursues US or Korean crimes as a foreign policy, fine. Great. By the logic you’ve been using here, though, the US and Korea would appropriately respond by talking about Japan’s crimes and then bringing up China. Perhaps the US should first retract its apology for the internment of Japanese-Americans or have the President question whether or not the Trail of Tears ever existed first, though.

Bring up US crimes, bring them up all you want. Bring suit against the US. Encourage Diet members to bring up a resolution demanding a US apology (although timing is important as, yes, at this moment, it would look a bit like a distraction.)

It’s great that Marmot and other bloggers are criticizing Mike Honda. I don’t care one way or the other about Mike Honda. I’m not even concerned about what happens in the House because it doesn’t matter. Honda’s resolution is unlikely to see a vote. If it does, it is unlikely to pass. If it does, it carries no weight anwyay. It doesn’t even mean that the US government agrees. The Senate could just as easily issue a resolution saying that there were never any brothels in Japan. It just doesn’t matter. I have never praised him. I think once, on Seijigiri, I might have said his actions looked a little self-interested. I haven’t had much to say about the guy, though, because Mike Honda is not the issue.

I am concerned about one thing and one thing only: what the Government of Japan does.

Comment by ken

May 17, 2007 @ 11:40 am

Ponta,

Many American bloggers(Marmot, Coming Anarchy, Anpontan , Rok drops) criticized Honda for his action for the reslutions.
But TPY thinks Honda’s movement is right. Am I correct?

1) Trans-Pacific Radio does not have one stance. Individual contributors might have stances.

2) I argue all sides of any given argument. As I said before, arguing my own opinion is useless. What matters is looking at all sides of the issue.

3) Many American bloggers(Marmot, Coming Anarchy, Anpontan , Rok drops) criticized Honda

Many ‘American bloggers’ have supported Honda as well. What is your point?

What does ‘American blogger’ mean? I don’t think any of those bloggers live in, nor blog on, America.

Comment by ken

May 17, 2007 @ 11:41 am

Ponta, there are no comments of yours in the spam filter. It gets automatically emptied out from time to time. We have full-time jobs and usually never check it. For now on, it would be best to assume that the spam filter is never checked by a human being.

Comment by ken

May 17, 2007 @ 11:45 am

Still Honda is pushing for the resolution because he is doing for his consituents.

Ponta, I made that point a long, long time ago. Before the resolution was even introduced. I made that point and I also pointed out that dismissing Honda’a resolution as something he’s just doing for his constituents is a cheap and easy red herring attack against what he’s doing.

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 3:52 pm

DeOrio
Thank

.If GHQ condoned or, even worse, requested the recruitment of women to work in brothels, the US absolutely owes them an apology in the sincerest terms - from the President himself and from the Speaker of the House (the highest-ranking legislator) - and owes them money, to say the least. I have said this repeatedly and explicitly in this thread.

I am glad you said that. On the other hand, What I care a little is that you claim on condition if ….
I showed you the testimony that the US requested , and I showed you the book about sin cities. You don’t believe the testimony by a Japanese and book by an American while you tend to believe the inconsistent testimonies by comfort women.

However, I have also explained why Japan’s apologies have been insincere. The trouble is not in the tone of voice of the person delivering the comments, but that no apology has ever been ratified by the Diet

I said I didn’t buy this argument.
We can agree to disagree.
The reason I don’t buy this argument is that different people insist different criteria. As I showed you before, Australian comfort women demanded apology form PM and according to the article I showed, one of them said she was satisfied.
Other people are calling for apology from the emperor.
And you suggest the Diet issue apology.
If there is no agreed way to apologize on all the side concerened, the next apology will be useless.

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 4:03 pm

Kato Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato1992

The Government again would like to express its sincere apology and remorse to all those who have suffered indescribable hardship as so-called “wartime comfort women”, irrespective of their nationality or place of birth.

Kono the Chief Cabinet Secretary 1993
The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

Murayama PM 1995
hich, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed.

Hashimoto PM 1998
Recognizing that the issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, I would like to convey to Your Excellency my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

Koizumi 2001
As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.

Abe PM 2007
I express my sympathy for the hardships they suffered and offer my apology for the situation they found themselves in

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 4:28 pm

. In the case of the current PM, he spent years - most of his career in the Diet - working very hard and publicly for the retraction of apologies and admissions of guilt

As I understand it, there has been a recognition among some diet members that Kono’s statement was misleading in that many people believed Japanese troop as a policy systematically abducted women for the brothels, which is false. Abe have wanted to correct the misconception. And as far as I know no diet member want to retract apologies PM and the government issues.
Could you give me the source who said Japan
should retract apology?

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 4:33 pm

The Diet seems to think that they can say one thing within Japan and another thing for foreign consumption and that it is somehow unfair if their foreign audience finds out what they said for domestic consumption.

First there are many diet member who support comfort women and there are also many diet members who support Kono’s statement and There are a few members who want to renew Kono’s statement so as not to
give misunderstandings. Again could you give me concrete example where the Diet member, or the Diet as a whole is using the double dealing?

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 4:42 pm

As for this idea you keep bringing up that the US has never apologized for crimes it has committed

I have never said the US has not apologized the crimes she committed. But I said the US (for that matter,Korea, Germany) have never apologized the prostitutes exploited by their troops in the way Japan did.

To use your analogy, yes, it would be a red herring if I brought up your guilt to deflect calls for further apologies

Again I am afraid this analogy fails. because Japan acknowledged the system was wrong, and I am not suggesting to deflect call for further apology, I am suggesting to delve into the real issue.
To represent opponent’s argument in an irrelevant and shabby way is a textbook example of a straw man argument.

If I, as the Black man, were representing Japan in this analogy, though, I would not have gone to prison. I’d have been given a suspended sentence, violated my probation, and been given yet another suspended sentence for it.

Granted your analogy holds for the sake of argument, where did the white men go? just as free as ever?

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 4:48 pm

If I say, “Japan needs to issue an official apology,” and you respond by bringing up American crimes, that’s a red herring because American crimes are not the issue.

American crimes are not the issue because you don’t want to take it up when the issue is remedy for comfort women exploited by military.

If, though, you bring up American crimes on their own, instead of as a defense, that is not a red herring. That is perfectly valid.

I have never used it as a defence. I said from the start, system was wrong. Japan is responsible for it, and you know we agreed it.

The reason neither Ken nor I nor any of our contributors have brought up American crimes is quite simply that we don’t cover American politics, US history, or US news unless it directly relates to Japan.

And it directly relates to Japan:Honda, (1)the US representative is call for more apology for the former comfort women exploited by military, (2)the US is also involved in the exploitation of the prostitutes.

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 4:56 pm

By the logic you’ve been using here, though, the US and Korea would appropriately respond by talking about Japan’s crimes and then bringing up China

What is wrong with that? That is more productive.
Let me quote Bix, the author of Hirohito and the making of Modern Japan

In short, Nanking 1937 needs to be read in a way that highlights the universal within the particular. Set it against the background of the Russian rape of German women in postwar occupied Germany (1945-49), or the French torture of civilians during the Algerian War (1954-62) or the American atrocities at No Gun Ri hamlet early in the Korean War (1950-53). Compare the logic of Japan’s campaign in 1930s China with the American colonial war of aggression in Iraq, now generating war atrocities on a virtually daily basis, or with the American murder of Afghanis prisoners at the U.S. Baghran air base in Afghanistan, or the American mistreatment of war prisoners held in cages at the U.S. Guantanamo base in Cuba. And don’t forget the lessons of the atrocities in Nanking when reading of the atrocious policies that Israeli governments (past but especially present) pursue against the Palestinians for the sake of Israeli “settlements” and “outposts” built illegally on stolen land. By conjuring the sight of these still fresh, unhealed crimes this book should enlighten and anger its readers

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 5:12 pm

Perhaps the US should first retract its apology for the internment of Japanese-Americans or have the President question whether or not the Trail of Tears ever existed first, though

I don’t understand it at all, I am utterly at a loss.
Japanese Americans are Americans, aren’t they? And Americans were interned because of their ethnicity, right? And you think the U.S will want to retract the apology to Americans because the U.S. has to face the fact that the US was also involved in the military brothels in the same way Japan did?????
If Americans want to retract apology, why not? That is the U.S. internal issue.
But i don’t understand in any way why you are view this problem as as a racial issue. So was Komori’s intuition right when he said in the interview that this issue is becoming racism against Japanese.
Is that an average American hold deep down
in their heart?

I don’t care one way or the other about Mike Honda……I am concerned about one thing and one thing only: what the Government of Japan does.

If we should not care about Honda’s resolution, it seems there is nothing to worry about what Japan should do.

Comment by ponta

May 17, 2007 @ 5:23 pm

Ken

Ponta, there are no comments of yours in the spam filter. It gets automatically emptied out from time to time. We have full-time jobs and usually never check it. For now on, it would be best to assume that the spam filter is never checked by a human being.

Thank you for checking.
I suggest you guys posts what type of comment will be filtered, othewise, some people might think the comments are unfairly deleted.
My commet was eaten between May 16, 2007 @ 3:58 pm and May 16, 2007 @ 7:48 pm. It is just less than 4 hours apart. So the spam fileter is working very hard.

(Sorry for my poor English)

Comment by Ken Worsley

May 17, 2007 @ 5:49 pm

ponta, thanks for the suggestion.

I suspect you comments have open HTML tags, which may put the in the filter.

Comment by John S

May 18, 2007 @ 1:14 am

A request for you guys at TPR: I really hope that for now on you can prevent this type of threadjacking from happening. This guy has basically destroyed any chance for a rational conversation on the topic you wanted to discuss by filling it up with comments that aren’t relevant and often don’t belong here. Getting rid of this kind of crap would go a long way towards making the site better for everyone. Thank you!

Comment by ponta

May 18, 2007 @ 2:59 am

I am sorry for “threadjacking”
If you don’t want different opinion, or you can not stand talking with people who disagree, just tell me.
I have no intention to “thredjack”

Comment by ponta

May 18, 2007 @ 4:01 am

BTW
I divided the comments so it won’t be eaten by spam filter. No, even when I didn’t use HTML tags, just long comment was held by the spam filter.
And I asked to delete the double posts which I did because it didn’t appear the first time.

I am sorry again for “thread jacking”, though I still do not understand which was my comments irrelevant to the topic.

Comment by ken

May 18, 2007 @ 8:38 am

John: I don’t think he’s trying to threadjack. Don’t worry.

Ponta: Of course we want different opinions. Don’t be insulting to us based on a comment from a visitor. That’s just plain rude.

Comment by ponta

May 18, 2007 @ 5:02 pm

Ken

Don’t be insulting to us based on a comment from a visitor. That’s just plain rude.

I am sorry if something in my comment was offensive.
Again I am sorry to ask this, but could you be kindly enough to point out which statement was insulting and rude?
I

Comment by John S

May 18, 2007 @ 6:44 pm

Ken: You don’t think this guy is threadjacking? Are you serious? He appears on one thread and floods it with off-track comments about side issues and never addreses counterpoints, instead bringing up unrelated side issues.

This is classic threadjacking, preventing actual discussion by flooding the board with noise. No one else is able to discuss the issue at hand because someone with an agenda has ruined the comment section.

You need to put a stop to this immature crap, or else other users cannot use the website.

Comment by ponta

May 18, 2007 @ 8:17 pm

John S
Thanks.
I would like to suggest you to start arguing on the topic you want to discuss rather than calling names.
If you think my argument is off the topic, please be specific.
As I understand the topic, as the title suggests the author thinks Japan has a taste for red-herring. For instance, as for the comfort women issue, taking up the US case, and Korean case is red-herring, so he insisted.
I disagreed.
But note in the final comment, he said,
“If, though, you bring up American crimes on their own, instead of as a defense, that is not a red herring. That is perfectly valid.”

“If Japan aggressively pursues US or Korean crimes as a foreign policy, fine. Great. By the logic you’ve been using here, though, the US and Korea would appropriately respond by talking about Japan’s crimes and then bringing up China. ”

(To this comment, I responded there would be nothing wrong with that, citing Bix)

So in a way we are getting very close; though there are bunch of points we disagree.

Ken
I don’t think it is insulting to ask if John S, “this guy” does not want different opinion, not is it rude to state I don’t understand which of my comments was irrelevant to the topic.
I emailed to TPR on May 5th,
“Hi
I commented on (address)
But it hasn’t appeared yet.
Might it be for techinical reason?
It it was moderated, could you tell me the criteria for the moderation.?
I’ll be more careful not to violate the norm TPR set up. when I comment”
I still hold that.
I try not to be rude and insulting whatever that means.

Comment by Ken Worsley

May 18, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

John: This thread is not a space for your diatribe or personal problems. Such matters can be dealt with by email, should you have a problem with the site. Comments should be relevant to the post. We will not tolerate personal attacks.

Ponta: Please ignore him. I’m sorry, I thought your comment was in reference to me (or TPR), not the other commenter. Looking at it again, I suppose it could be a bit unclear.

—————-

Any further comments with personal attacks will not be tolerated.

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